God and Time

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FollowerofShiloh

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When a plane flies, the law of gravity is not suspended for people on the flight. The law of gravity continues to operate but its downward pull is overcome by the creation of an upward thrust using other laws. When God raised Lazarus, time continued its forward motion everywhere, but God inspired life from Himself and creative power from Himself into Lazarus and His cells, allowing them to heal.

When God turned back the sun ten degrees, time (sequencing of events with before and after) continued. Time itself was not reversed, but one of the clocks that God had made was turned back 40 minutes. Time does not reverse when you wind a clock back 40 minutes.

Yes, God is able to overpower natural laws and create unusual effects. But we see no examples of God stopping or reversing time itself. This means that possibly time is not a law separate from the first law, but may be one of the characteristics inherent in the first law.
I have absolutely no idea what you're saying here or what you believe you're saying here.
No Logic to it.
A plane is battling Gravity by Force. Remove the turbine engines and the Plane succumbs to Gravity. Two Laws within the Laws of Physics can always perpetuate opposite results.
Do you have any Scientific Method knowledge or Mathematic understanding?

And God, Creator, is not bound nor controlled by anything He has made.

I have no idea why you're attempting to paint the image of God as you just have


Where did I say God reversed time in the Book of Jasher?
I did not even say time stopped in my example of Lazarus.
You're just off on some tangent and the rabbit trail is painful to follow.

You're talking to me about nothing I even pointed out. Maybe you have some other poster in mind here :unsure:
 

awelight

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I have absolutely no idea what you're saying here or what you believe you're saying here.
No Logic to it.
A plane is battling Gravity by Force. Remove the turbine engines and the Plane succumbs to Gravity. Two Laws within the Laws of Physics can always perpetuate opposite results.
Do you have any Scientific Method knowledge or Mathematic understanding?

And God, Creator, is not bound nor controlled by anything He has made.

I have no idea why you're attempting to paint the image of God as you just have


Where did I say God reversed time in the Book of Jasher?
I did not even say time stopped in my example of Lazarus.
You're just off on some tangent and the rabbit trail is painful to follow.

You're talking to me about nothing I even pointed out. Maybe you have some other poster in mind here :unsure:
I agree with you here.

In the pursuit of "pure" science, one approaches a problem or unknown with a neutral approach and allows the facts to establish a hypothesis. Later, perhaps a theorem which is tested and may become a law. In the discussion of "eternity" and "time", as it applies to God and Creation, the facts must come from the Holy Scriptures and no other conceived human understanding. This highlights one of the biggest problems in human research and study. The elimination of a preconceived "bias".

It seems to me, that PaulThomson is arguing from a preconceived bias. Rather than introducing points from various perspectives, as he did in his opening post, he continues to argue for one particular biased view. In that process, he is having trouble remaining within a coherent lane of thinking because he is trying to force a particular outcome.

As you well pointed out, in your aircraft flight example, an aircraft remains aloft because of it's wing shape and forward thrust. Reduce either the lift force or the thrust and it will not stay airborne. This is not a defying of gravitational attraction but a working within the understood laws. However, if God chose to eliminate or temporarily suspend a single aspect of these laws - Gravity, Dynamic lift, Thrust or Drag - the aircraft would inexplicably stop flying or remain aloft when it should not. I do think, however, that this is what he was trying to say.

What confused me, in regards to his argument, was when he stated that God turned back one of His clocks 40 minutes but not time itself. Either way, it would seem to me, this would prove that God is above time and space. He may work in it and through it to serve His Purpose but in no way is governed or fenced by it. Therefore, time means no more to God than the law of gravity. Time is for his creation - just as gravity and mass attraction keep the Universe from flying apart.

For the scientific community, the biggest problem they still have is explaining the: Uncaused Cause.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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An interesting philosophical concept to consider is the notion of God’s relationship to time. Many Christian are quick to claim that God is not subject to time. This view is known as atemporalism. At first glance, this view seems sound as it affirms God’s immutability, highlights God’s omniscience and seeks to exalt God as one who sits over the constraints of time.

However, there are some serious concerns with this view. First, if this view is correct, God exists in a constant state of stasis. Everything would be a frozen present to God. Thus, creation, redemption and recreation would all be simultaneous events for God. In fact, it would call into question the very concept of God creating the world ex nihilo. For, how could God create the universe which had not previously existed if, for God, there could never be a first moment of creation. how could God create the universe which had not previously existed if, for God, there could never be a first moment of creation. Finally, this notion would cause us to reconsider God’s interactions with humanity we see in Scripture that is replete with warnings, answered prayers, forgiveness, anger, love and other acts which indicate God is responding and interacting with humanity based on human actions in time. This view is also popular among Calvinists as they use this philosophical notion as justification for God‘s predetermination of the elect and damned based on his sovereign declaration rather than human response. It would only make sense that if everything is a frozen constant to God, then the moment of creation would also be the moment of salvation. God knowing everything prior to creation would have created the world in such a way as to have predetermined all outcomes.

A second view on God‘s relationship with time is temporalism. This view suggests that God exists in time. In the same way humans are subject to time, so is God. Yet for God, his past is infinite as well as his future. In some ways, this fits many of the Biblical descriptions of God’s interaction with time as he is referred to as one who is “from everlasting to everlasting,” “the first and the last,“ and “before all time and now and forever“ (Jude 25). This is not to say that God is subject to time, as if he is inferior to time itself. Rather, that time is part of God’s essence or being. Theologians from this view hold a range of different theological positions from Reformed theologians, Arminians and openness theologians.

A third view would argue that God is metatemporal. Similar to the temporal view, this view claims that God does exist in time. However, God does stand outside the human timeline. This view holds that there is created time and uncreated time. God stands outside the created timeline of the universe he made, but still exists in his own time which is part of his very essence. Thus, God does interact with humanity based on the flow of time and God, himself, along with his thoughts and actions do have a past, present and future. So the encounters with humanity along time are not merely anthropomorphic as atemporalists would argue, but are genuine responses to past and present actions.

What are your thoughts about God and time? I am interesting in discussing your thoughts and their implications on how we understand the teachings of Scripture.
God the Creator is outside the limitation of what He created.

"how could God create the universe which had not previously existed if, for God, there could never be a first moment of creation."


In the Beginning, God created things by speaking them into existence.


The problem with all of these pretentious thoughts is that they seek to control the God of the bible. God, who became flesh, was done after the word, and man was already in the completed state of Creation with the exception of sin that entered into the world.

atemporalism: to be ungoverned and unchanged
temporalism. A changed value over time
metatemporal. A concept that incorporates the past, present, and future reality as a complete and present reality.



God is able to change His mind, and no one governs Him. He is Holy. Set apart, human rationality cannot properly describe or fully know Him outside what God Himself Provided. God is PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE TRUTH!

The First Cause, uncaused.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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I have absolutely no idea what you're saying here or what you believe you're saying here.
No Logic to it.
A plane is battling Gravity by Force. Remove the turbine engines and the Plane succumbs to Gravity. Two Laws within the Laws of Physics can always perpetuate opposite results.
Do you have any Scientific Method knowledge or Mathematic understanding?

And God, Creator, is not bound nor controlled by anything He has made.

I have no idea why you're attempting to paint the image of God as you just have


Where did I say God reversed time in the Book of Jasher?
I did not even say time stopped in my example of Lazarus.
You're just off on some tangent and the rabbit trail is painful to follow.

You're talking to me about nothing I even pointed out. Maybe you have some other poster in mind here :unsure:
I'm sure my post is a logical response to the claims you were making in the post I was responding to: your first post in this thread. If you can't see the logic to it, I am confident that the problem does not lie in what I wrote.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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I'm sure my post is a logical response to the claims you were making in the post I was responding to: your first post in this thread. If you can't see the logic to it, I am confident that the problem does not lie in what I wrote.
If I presented your thoughts to the Chair and Board of Advisory's for Science and Mathematics they would diagnose your idealism' as gibberish. You may be convinced but most who know little are assured by nothing.
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Jan 24, 2024
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PaulThomson
I am going to say this. What actually matters is how you can understand it. We all understand God and follow God but many of us do not have the same realization of God or could explain Him to others. This is a forum where we discuss our viewpoints. There's always a correct answer. There's always an incorrect answer. There's always close enough answers. Not everyone is on the same level, not everyone has the same understanding, not everyone will know as much as some. The only thing that actually matters, unless it's dealing with salvation, is that no one has to be right in order to realize their level of understanding is perfect for them self.

Also, how one answers and the answers they provide reveal the platform they have been at to gain their knowledge. Some will answer in the form of theory and others will respond by how they figured things out for themselves or self taught.

Don't let me stop you from thinking as you do even if I am convinced by what I can see that I believe you actually know (y)
 

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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It seems that PaulThomson's perception of stopping time would result in everything being "frozen". That much I've gathered, I think? :unsure:
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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It seems that PaulThomson's perception of stopping time would result in everything being "frozen". That much I've gathered, I think? :unsure:
Well, yes. If time stopped there could be no before and after events happenimg. If time went backwards 40 minutes, the last 40 minutes would need to repeat exactly, to get back to the present that was departed from to return to the past.

Stopping the sun, or reversing the sun, does not stop time, or reverse time, if other historical events are continuing to happen forwards , with before and after events.
 

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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Well, yes. If time stopped there could be no before and after events happenimg. If time went backwards 40 minutes, the last 40 minutes would need to repeat exactly, to get back to the present that was departed from to return to the past.

Stopping the sun, or reversing the sun, does not stop time, or reverse time, if other historical events are continuing to happen forwards , with before and after events.
in Luke 18, after said, "Look, we have left all we had to follow You." Jesus declares in vv. 29-30,
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many times more in this age—and in the age to come, eternal life.”

Thank you to confirming my astute observation :giggle:. As I consider the possibility, I wonder at how we might know any point in time that this might've happened (having been hindered from thinking the next thought after the one we thought before). I know that I've wished once or twice that I could stop time for one reason or another. But I also think of such times of what I'd perceived as "close calls" and now wonder if stopping time might have been somehow involved. That is, time is stopped, things are rearranged to hit or miss what otherwise would have occurred after if the course of time were left to itself, and time is then resumed to continue with the more desirable outcome. Theoretically, would the manipulator of time and space then be operating, simultaneously, in multiple time space continuums?
 

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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^Luke 18:29-30 had influence as a starter of the above considerations, thinking on how we indeed may actually receive eternal life both "many times more" in this age and in the age to come.
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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in Luke 18, after said, "Look, we have left all we had to follow You." Jesus declares in vv. 29-30,
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many times more in this age—and in the age to come, eternal life.”

Thank you to confirming my astute observation :giggle:. As I consider the possibility, I wonder at how we might know any point in time that this might've happened (having been hindered from thinking the next thought after the one we thought before). I know that I've wished once or twice that I could stop time for one reason or another. But I also think of such times of what I'd perceived as "close calls" and now wonder if stopping time might have been somehow involved. That is, time is stopped, things are rearranged to hit or miss what otherwise would have occurred after if the course of time were left to itself, and time is then resumed to continue with the more desirable outcome. Theoretically, would the manipulator of time and space then be operating, simultaneously, in multiple time space continuums?
Is that what the Bible says happens during near misses? Is there any indication in the Bible that time was ever stopped and God rearranged things in another time-space continuum, while time was stopped in the first continuum, and then transferred those changes to the first space-time and then restarted time there?
 

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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Is that what the Bible says happens during near misses? Is there any indication in the Bible that time was ever stopped and God rearranged things in another time-space continuum, while time was stopped in the first continuum, and then transferred those changes to the first space-time and then restarted time there?
The closest to that I can think of is a poster's (without going back to see exactly who) mentioned the destruction of 180K enemies while the Hebrew camp slept. And of course, the sun being stopped for Joshua might've been allowing Joshua to "exist" in a couple of time space continuums. I mean, how can I possibly know exactly how he experienced it unless I were there with Joshua? I only know it that it happened the sun, or the earth was hindered from continuing in its ordained path for a spell. but I'll keep a watch out for other indications of similar phenomenon that might be of relevance.
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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The closest to that I can think of is a poster's (without going back to see exactly who) mentioned the destruction of 180K enemies while the Hebrew camp slept. And of course, the sun being stopped for Joshua might've been allowing Joshua to "exist" in a couple of time space continuums. I mean, how can I possibly know exactly how he experienced it unless I were there with Joshua? I only know it that it happened the sun, or the earth was hindered from continuing in its ordained path for a spell. but I'll keep a watch out for other indications of similar phenomenon that might be of relevance.
Why does time need to stop passing for God to keep the earth from spinning for a period? Apparently, multiple ancient cultures worldwide recorded the occurrence of an unusually long day in their ancient history.
 

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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Why does time need to stop passing for God to keep the earth from spinning for a period? Apparently, multiple ancient cultures worldwide recorded the occurrence of an unusually long day in their ancient history.
How can you measure whether it was a long moment or a long day? If 1,000 people had 1,000 different experiences within that 'timeframe," how would you submit that into the captain's log if it required a notation? down to the millisecond?
 

SilverFox7

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Dec 24, 2022
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Everything God planned for man was dominated by time. Everything and every event past, present and future. The feasts of the Lord is part of this. Israel leaving Egypt to the Lord crucified on Passover. Why do we say the Lord is slow in his coming, everything is based on time.
I like what you brought up here about the feasts of the Lord (Leviticus 23) being tied into time and God's plan of salvation for mankind ultimately:

Passover and Days of Unleavened Bread - Christ our Passover Lamb suffered and died for our sins

Pentecost - the coming of the Holy Spirit

Feast of Trumpets - the return of Christ

Day of Atonement - Satan bound and atonement between God and mankind on a worldwide scale enters a new era

Feast of Tabernacles - 1000 year reign of Christ on earth

Last Great Day - resurrection of the dead who were not Christians in this life

Some believe this all works out to 7000 years total based on a literal interpretation of a thousand years being like a day on to the Lord. Only God knows the ultimate timetable for the next big phase in God's master plan for man when Jesus returns, which I pray is in the near future.
 

SilverFox7

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Dec 24, 2022
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Grand Rapids, Michigan
The closest to that I can think of is a poster's (without going back to see exactly who) mentioned the destruction of 180K enemies while the Hebrew camp slept. And of course, the sun being stopped for Joshua might've been allowing Joshua to "exist" in a couple of time space continuums. I mean, how can I possibly know exactly how he experienced it unless I were there with Joshua? I only know it that it happened the sun, or the earth was hindered from continuing in its ordained path for a spell. but I'll keep a watch out for other indications of similar phenomenon that might be of relevance.
That's the only instance I can think of in the Bible where God actually interrupted the pattern of time for Joshua. I have heard of instances where people have been given a glimpse into the past through what I would describe as a fissure in time, and T.S. Eliot, the great Christian poet, plays with this concept in Four Quartets.
 

Omegatime

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Apr 29, 2023
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I like what you brought up here about the feasts of the Lord (Leviticus 23) being tied into time and God's plan of salvation for mankind ultimately:

Passover and Days of Unleavened Bread - Christ our Passover Lamb suffered and died for our sins

Pentecost - the coming of the Holy Spirit

Feast of Trumpets - the return of Christ

Day of Atonement - Satan bound and atonement between God and mankind on a worldwide scale enters a new era

Feast of Tabernacles - 1000 year reign of Christ on earth

Last Great Day - resurrection of the dead who were not Christians in this life

Some believe this all works out to 7000 years total based on a literal interpretation of a thousand years being like a day on to the Lord. Only God knows the ultimate timetable for the next big phase in God's master plan for man when Jesus returns, which I pray is in the near future.
You mentioned Feast of Trumpets as the return of Christ. I see it as the day the man who will become the antichrist makes a covenant with many. Dan 9:27
 

SilverFox7

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You mentioned Feast of Trumpets as the return of Christ. I see it as the day the man who will become the antichrist makes a covenant with many. Dan 9:27
Interesting. I haven't seen that tie to Trumpets before.

One key verse used to tie Jesus' return with the Feast of Trumpets is

1 Thessalonians 4:16

New King James Version

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
 

Omegatime

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Apr 29, 2023
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Interesting. I haven't seen that tie to Trumpets before.

One key verse used to tie Jesus' return with the Feast of Trumpets is

1 Thessalonians 4:16

New King James Version

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
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Trumpet is a war trumpet between good and evil.

I have not shunned from saying the return of Christ will be on Pentecost. When the Lord said " wheat to the barn" Mat 13, He was talking about the righteous and what time is the wheat harvest-From the feast of first fruits to Pentecost.

12 Blessed is he who waits and comes to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. Dan 12:12

From the Feast of Trumpets to Pentecost will be exactly 1335 days

Doesn't happen often but the only time in the near future will be:

Feast Trumpets year 2025
Pentecost 2029

Much more to this story but blindness is rampart
 

SilverFox7

Well-known member
Dec 24, 2022
671
425
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Grand Rapids, Michigan
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Trumpet is a war trumpet between good and evil.

I have not shunned from saying the return of Christ will be on Pentecost. When the Lord said " wheat to the barn" Mat 13, He was talking about the righteous and what time is the wheat harvest-From the feast of first fruits to Pentecost.

12 Blessed is he who waits and comes to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. Dan 12:12

From the Feast of Trumpets to Pentecost will be exactly 1335 days

Doesn't happen often but the only time in the near future will be:

Feast Trumpets year 2025
Pentecost 2029

Much more to this story but blindness is rampart
This connection between Trumpets and Pentecost is intriguing.

Perhaps, it is similar to the strong connection between the Day of Atonement and Passover (Jesus' sacrifice tore the veil to the Holy of Holies and made atonement possible between us and God through His blood). Once Satan is out of the picture, I can't wait to see how a Godly society will truly function under Christ's leadership.