Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,754
8,267
113
since you have not yet defined the status of man after the Fall
There is no doubt whatsoever that both Adam and Eve were saved post-fall.

Therefore, the SEPARATION (aka spiritual death) would inevitably be fully restored (aka eternal life) by the Redeemer.
The fact of which was demonstrated to them in the death of the lambs and the covering by their skins.

Both Adam and Eve were "covered by and under the blood".

for if man is indeed spiritually dead
All men born from Adam are born SEPARATED (aka spiritually dead) from God.

The only question is whether they will be ETERNALLY SEPARATED (aka cast into the lake of fire) or REDEEMED to renewed union with God (aka eternal life).

Get a clue buddy. So far you are batting.....pretty much zero.
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
I agree that God's sovereign election in chapter nine of Romans concerns
the nation of Israel and the Gentile nations.

Not God's sovereign election of any individual, Paul is not talking about
why that person is elect and someone else is non elect. Paul is talking about
why Israel failed to attain to righteousness.

Romans 9:30-32
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained
righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; however, Israel, pursuing a law
of righteousness, did not arrive at that law
. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith,
but as though they could by works.

See, Paul is discussing to different sets of people, Israel and the Gentiles.

I recommend you start reading Romans chapter nine, ten and eleven.

Pay careful attention to the context, which is why Israel failed!

Otherwise, you distort the scripture and divide the Christian world!
The Christian world is only made up of converted Jews and Gentiles who have been chosen by God before the foundation of the world and will be brought to God through the preaching of the Gospel.

The doctrine of sovereign election is found all throughout Scripture and those who deny it end up denying the Trinity and the work of the Godhead in securing salvation for those the Father had chosen, the Son saves and the Spirit seals.

The true Israel of God are those who are in Christ. God saves by grace and not by race!

1716946502553.jpeg
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Some believe that Adam was.....70 years old when he ate the fruit of the tree of death.
it doesn't matter what some may say but what Scripture says and it says that Adam died that day but ended up living to the age of 930 which confirms that on that day Adam died spiritually and began to die physically because he had lost the image and likeness of God which is God's Spirit.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,803
2,259
113
it doesn't matter what some may say but what Scripture says and it says that Adam died that day but ended up living to the age of 930 which confirms that on that day Adam died spiritually and began to die physically because he had lost the image and likeness of God which is God's Spirit.
Dead = Separated

This is why Reformed theology is inaccurate, it seems to me to in Reformed circles it means unable/total inability or total depravity or some combination thereof.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,754
8,267
113
continuing reading the same chapter and you will immediately come to the parable of the wheat and the tares (weeds)
Tares = pretenders/fakes/frauds
Wheat = true faith in Jesus Christ

Sooooo simple.

Same goes here......

Mat 7:22
“Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
Mat 7:23
“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

And here.....

45Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has set over his household, to give to them the food in season? 46Blessed is that servant whom his master, having come, will find thus doing. 47Truly I say to you that he will set him over all of his possessing.
48But if that evil servant should say in his heart, ‘My master delays,’ 49and should begin to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and to drink with those being drunkards, 50the master of that servant will come in a day in which he does not expect, and in an hour which he is unaware, 51and will cut him in pieces, and will appoint his place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

And here....

1Then the kingdom of the heavens will be likened to ten virgins, who, having taken their lamps, went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2And five of them were foolish, and five wise. 3For the foolish, having taken their lamps, took no oil with them; 4but the wise took oil in vessels with their lamps. 5And the bridegroom tarrying, they all became drowsy and were sleeping.
6And at the middle of the night, there was a cry: ‘Behold, the bridegroom! Go forth to meet him!’
7Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
9And the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest it might not suffice for us and you. Go rather to those selling, and buy for yourselves.’
10And while they are going away to buy, the bridegroom came, and those ready went in with him to the wedding feast. And the door was shut.
11And afterward, the other virgins come also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’
12And answering he said, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’

And here......

24And the one having received the one talent, having come, also said, ‘Master, I knew you, that you are a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering from where you did not scatter. 25And having been afraid, having gone away, I hid your talent in the ground. Behold, you have what is yours.’
26And his master answering, said to him, ‘Wicked and lazy servant! You knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather from where I did not scatter. 27Therefore it behooved you to put my money to the bankers, and having come, I would have received my own with interest.
28Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to the one having the ten talents. 29For to everyone having will be given, and he will have in abundance. But the one not having, even that which he has will be taken away from him. 30And cast out the worthless servant, into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
George Whitefield who many of us think was the prime mover of the great awakening and the greater evangelist was much closer to what was going on and much closer to the Wesleys

... he does not share your withered judgement.
I highly admire Whitefield but that doesn't mean I agree with absolutely everything he said.

If a person sys that they are saved by absolutely anything they have done then they are guaranteed to not yet be saved and are still under the curse and have not yet been humbled by God to realise that salvation belongs to Hi and not the choice of men.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,803
2,259
113
I highly admire Whitefield but that doesn't mean I agree with absolutely everything he said.

If a person sys that they are saved by absolutely anything they have done then they are guaranteed to not yet be saved and are still under the curse and have not yet been humbled by God to realise that salvation belongs to Hi and not the choice of men.

The God of scripture is not morally ambiguous and arbitrary by choosing some and not choosing another based on some kind of hidden mystery.
Nope not biblical.
People do not choose they are persuaded by hearing the Gospel, there is a big difference to those who can understand nuance.
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
Sorry to be slow. I'm just consolidating your 3 posts I see outstanding.

I'm going to leave you to yourself and others. You have a way with logical fallacies, but they're pointless.

Pick a Scripture from the systematic theology you're clearly pushing, and I'll watch for you to put forth your clear interpretation and see what I think of it. Other than that, further offering to discuss Scripture in some detail with someone who thinks posting lists of purported proof-text verse references others came up with is letting Scripture interpret Scripture is not of further interest.
It saddens me that your pride has caused you to be unteachable, not willing to submit to the plain truth of Scripture that is given you, with no response to simple questions of doctrine and now it seems that you are judicially blinded by God no matter how holy you may claim to be. I will continue to pray for you.
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
There is no doubt whatsoever that both Adam and Eve were saved post-fall.

Therefore, the SEPARATION (aka spiritual death) would inevitably be fully restored (aka eternal life) by the Redeemer.
The fact of which was demonstrated to them in the death of the lambs and the covering by their skins.

Both Adam and Eve were "covered by and under the blood".


All men born from Adam are born SEPARATED (aka spiritually dead) from God.

The only question is whether they will be ETERNALLY SEPARATED (aka cast into the lake of fire) or REDEEMED to renewed union with God (aka eternal life).

Get a clue buddy. So far you are batting.....pretty much zero.
thank you for finally admitting the all men are born spiritually dead in Adam, now please tell me what spiritually dead men who are cursed slaves to sin and Satan can do to be saved?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,754
8,267
113
The true Israel of God are those who are in Christ.
Absolute rubbish. As is the horrific heresy of replacement theology.

Paul is ALWAYS AND ONLY talking about Messianic Jews when he says "Israel of God". ISRAELITES of the stock of Jacob. ONLY.

Gal 6:16
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them (GENTILES), ***AND*** upon the Israel of God.

Paul makes a clear distinction here, because it is IMPOSSIBLE for a gentile to be an actual ethnic Israelite.

Furthermore, the Church is the VIRGIN BRIDE (of which Messianic Jews are a part!) waiting for the consummation.
Israel the nation (sons of Jacob only) is the WIFE OF JEHOVAH waiting for the restoration.

The first occurs at the rapture.
The second occurs at the Second Coming.
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
To say such a thing shows that you do not yet understand that every part of God's attributes including His love is permeated with His perfect holiness and immutability.

Hell is eternally cast into the Lake of Fire and to say that God loves those He justly casts there is to fail miserably in understanding what love is for how can God love those He eternally and justly torments?

Sadly, you have succumbed to the modern heresy that God loves absolutely everyone and desire to save those He has decreed not to save. Does He also love the Antichrist?

The truth of Scripture is that God only loves those who love Him because He first loved them (Pro 8:17, Jn 4:19) and the rest He justly and eternally hates as is evidenced by the 18 Scriptures below.

And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them (Lev. 20:23).
And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you (Lev. 26:30).​
For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee (Deut. 18:12).​
For all that do such things, and all that do unrighteously, are an abomination unto the Lord thy God (Deut. 25:16).​
And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters (Deut. 32:19).​
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man (Ps. 5:5-6).​
For the wicked boasteth of his heart’s desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the Lord abhorreth (Ps. 10:3).​
The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth (Ps. 11:5).​
These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren (Prov. 6:16-19).​
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished (Prov. 16:4-5).​
He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord (Prov. 17:15).​
The mouth of strange women is a deep pit: he that is abhorred of the Lord shall fall therein (Prov. 22:14).​
Behold, ye [i.e., idols] are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you (Isa. 41:24).​
Mine heritage is unto me as a lion in the forest; it crieth out against me: therefore have I hated it (Jer. 12:8).​
All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house (Hos. 9:15).​
Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me (Zech. 11:8).​
I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever. And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The Lord will be magnified from the border of Israel (Mal. 1:2-5).​
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (Rom. 9:13).​
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,754
8,267
113
thank you for finally admitting the all men are born spiritually dead in Adam, now please tell me what spiritually dead men who are cursed slaves to sin and Satan can do to be saved?
They can do what fallen Adam did. Who, after the fall, made TWO RIGHT CHOICES.
This after he made the WRONG CHOICE (while he was yet the perfect man in perfect fellowship with God) while sweating great drops of blood in the garden.

So much for the total depravity heresy.
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
Dead = Separated

This is why Reformed theology is inaccurate, it seems to me to in Reformed circles it means unable/total inability or total depravity or some combination thereof.
After the Fall, God Himself describes men as being "only evil continually" (Gen 6:5). Can you please tell me on a scale from one to ten where such words would fit?
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
Tares = pretenders/fakes/frauds
Wheat = true faith in Jesus Christ

Sooooo simple.

Same goes here......

Mat 7:22
“Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
Mat 7:23
“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

And here.....

45Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has set over his household, to give to them the food in season? 46Blessed is that servant whom his master, having come, will find thus doing. 47Truly I say to you that he will set him over all of his possessing.
48But if that evil servant should say in his heart, ‘My master delays,’ 49and should begin to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and to drink with those being drunkards, 50the master of that servant will come in a day in which he does not expect, and in an hour which he is unaware, 51and will cut him in pieces, and will appoint his place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

And here....

1Then the kingdom of the heavens will be likened to ten virgins, who, having taken their lamps, went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2And five of them were foolish, and five wise. 3For the foolish, having taken their lamps, took no oil with them; 4but the wise took oil in vessels with their lamps. 5And the bridegroom tarrying, they all became drowsy and were sleeping.
6And at the middle of the night, there was a cry: ‘Behold, the bridegroom! Go forth to meet him!’
7Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
9And the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest it might not suffice for us and you. Go rather to those selling, and buy for yourselves.’
10And while they are going away to buy, the bridegroom came, and those ready went in with him to the wedding feast. And the door was shut.
11And afterward, the other virgins come also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’
12And answering he said, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’

And here......

24And the one having received the one talent, having come, also said, ‘Master, I knew you, that you are a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering from where you did not scatter. 25And having been afraid, having gone away, I hid your talent in the ground. Behold, you have what is yours.’
26And his master answering, said to him, ‘Wicked and lazy servant! You knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather from where I did not scatter. 27Therefore it behooved you to put my money to the bankers, and having come, I would have received my own with interest.
28Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to the one having the ten talents. 29For to everyone having will be given, and he will have in abundance. But the one not having, even that which he has will be taken away from him. 30And cast out the worthless servant, into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
that's right, there are many false converts who think they are going to Heaven and are not. This is why I am lovingly seeking to correct them with Scripture lest they find themselves to be those who Christ also called lukewarm.

Rev 3:16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
The God of scripture is not morally ambiguous and arbitrary by choosing some and not choosing another based on some kind of hidden mystery.
Nope not biblical.
People do not choose they are persuaded by hearing the Gospel, there is a big difference to those who can understand nuance.
They are made willing only by the power of God and given a new heart with eyes to see Christ to even want to choose Him.

KJV Psa 110:3a Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,

Psa 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,754
8,267
113
the rest He justly and eternally hates as is evidenced by the 18 Scriptures below.
Absolute heresy....

Absalom....a type of the anti-Christ, David a type of Christ.
A portrait of Gods love for the lost.

2Sa 18:33
Then the king was deeply moved, and went up to the chamber over the gate, and wept. And as he went, he said thus: “O my son Absalom—my son, my son Absalom—if only I had died in your place! O Absalom my son, my son!”

Judas gets the sop of honor. Jesus is ***loving JUDAS*** (and has been all along!) and offering him fellowship and salvation......right to the bitter end.
Judas OF HIS OWN FREE WILL......refuses!

Jhn 13:26
Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.