Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[maxamir]

I am a Gray/Silver Jewish bloodline that can trace my heritage back to before 30 A.D. Israel and I am positive several Jewish families can also trace their heritage back to before the Destruction of 70 A.D. And sure, maybe those who moved to Israel since the Nation's rebirth cannot trace all of their bloodlines. That is a possibility. Just pointing out that some of us can. Some of us departed Israel and went South rather than to North Europe. Some of us made it to the new America in the early 1600's rather than after the 1930's. We know who is who amongst our inner circles. But I doubt many outsiders do without using a bloodline.

all historical records of genealogies were destroyed in Jerusalem and all who presume to be directly connected by blood to Abraham are simply the seed of those who were converted to Judaism and therefore have no proof of a direct bloodline as God had destroyed the temple and along with it all of the shadows and types of the old that were hidden behind the veil in Moses which were pointing to Christ in whom all things are fulfilled. The real seed of Abraham are born again Christians!

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Paul confirmed three times below that the old was passing away.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.
2Co 3:11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
2Co 3:12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech—
2Co 3:13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.

Stop hiding behind the veil in Moses and come out into the glorious light of the New Covenant in which Christ tore through the veil of the old which has been made obsolete and vanished away (Heb 8:13).

2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

 

[maxamir]

Genesis 2:17

did God lie for Adam ended up living to the ripe old age of 930?

 

[maxamir]

God is not bound by your understanding or by Calvin's understand of Him or His word.

One thing the Reformation has taught us all is that there is much in the bible which remains hidden to us unless and until God shines His light upon it.

God is bound by who He is and has given of His Word for His people to know Him as revealed in Christ who is the express image of the invisible God and the brightness of His glory become flesh to save His people from their sin. This is only a mystery to those who are still judicially blinded.

2Co 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
2Co 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

 

[Magenta]

did God lie for Adam ended up living to the ripe old age of 930?

Be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

[maxamir]

Yes and he speaks for us all ... if you ever do experience agape love you will understand to the last comma and full stop what John Wesley means here.

God's love is not attainable to our poor human hearts, we have but faint glimpses of it. People swoon when God manifests His love in a tangible way among His people. Wesley and others testify of one instance when they were all gathered together and God's love fell upon them all and overpowered them all so that fell to the ground in His presence.

You are far from such things.

Peter understood what Wesley meant when the Lord asked him 3 times "lovest thou Me?" We do love but our love is but a weak flickering candle.

Wesley was enunciating a well known lesson which it is well for us to learn. We do not go by human feelings, we go by the word of God.

Spurgeon would have said nothing different.

Wesley had a perverted man-centred view of the love of God like all Arminians today, caught up with experiences and emotions rather than truth and being inconsistent with the eternal, holy nature of God and Scripture which declares that God loves those who love Him and they only do so because He first loved them (Pro 8:17, 1 Jn 4:19).

Does God love those He justly casts into Hell?

 

[maxamir]

1. I am not arminian. If your going to continue to make accusation’s we can stop here

2. Jesus came for the reason he said. Not to judge the world. But that the world MIGHT be saved.

For God so loved the WORLD. That WHOEVER believes in him, will not perish, but will live forever.

Don’t take my word for it. Take jesus word for it. Calvinism is just as dangerous as arminians in my View. You both distort God and who he is.

If you think that the word "world" means every single person in the world without exception, then there can be no Hell and Christ is made out to be a liar for not all are saved. I sincerely hope you do not believe this as you would therefore be a Universalist.

Those who believe that Christ only came to make salvation possible for those who choose Him and did not come to secure salvation for His people when He said "It is finished" are Arminians whether they like the label or not.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

If you think that the word "world" means every single person in the world without exception, then there can be no Hell and Christ is made out to be a liar for not all are saved. I sincerely hope you do not believe this as you would therefore be a Universalist.

If I stopped at world. You would be correct.

But he said he died for the world so that WHOEVER believes.

Not everyone will believe, so your universal strawman is rejected

Those who believe that Christ only came to make salvation possible for those who choose Him and did not come to secure salvation for His people when He said "It is finished" are Arminians whether they like the label or not.

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I told you not to do this again.

This just shows your pride is deep. And you are unable to hold a conversation. You believe what you were taught, and nothing will change your mind

Good day sir. i will talk to someone who can actually learn to think for themself.

 

[maxamir]

We were discussing faith and its being subjective or objective and what exactly it is about it that is gifted by God. I don't recall you clarifying if we came to agreement about it.

since you have not yet defined the status of man after the Fall it would be presumptuous to speak of whether faith was a gift or not for if man is indeed spiritually dead then everything he receives from God unto salvation has to be a gift of grace. This is the argument of the whole of Scripture which I feel for some reason you are not yet willing to submit to.

If God is He who grants repentance, what makes you think He doesn't grant faith?

Act_11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."

 

[maxamir]

You're going to need to move on from this stuff if you want to continue any discussion, which I thought you were dropping. If you decide to actually get into any Scripture, which I offered to do a few times, we can use our abilities in Christ in Spirit to see if we can agree on what Scripture says.

If you can not agree that Scripture interprets Scripture then I have to wonder what type of seminary you went to if you are not willing to look at all the verses in Scripture that speak about and give clarity to any verse that may be in contention?

 

[maxamir]

Sorry, my friend, but you are sternly pushing Systematic Reformed Theology, specifically that known by the acronym TULIP and bearing the name of "Calvinism" be it right or wrong to so bear such name.

This is just like I wrote a few moments ago, every system thinks it's Biblical Theology and every other system battles against every other system to make that claim. A true Biblical Theology will come about when we have a true understanding that causes these denominational battles to settle down and reach some much greater degree of agreement.

NKJ Ephesians 4:1-16 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." 9 (Now this, "He ascended "-- what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) 11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head-- Christ--16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

When the Body is doing this, we'll have a Biblical Theology. We'll always have the immature to raise to maturity, but this fractured nonsense claiming maturity will be over and we'll corporately be strong against any false teaching. But, we're not there yet unless there is one denomination among us who has it all right. And of course every one of them says they are the one that does. This corporate maturity is not going to come about by these merry-go-round, go-nowhere, battles over everyone's chose "___ism."

Scripture constantly warns of apostasy but it seems not to bother you that the majority of what is preached today is a false gospel which can not save anyone.

I have never been bound by anyone's systematic theology but recognise that the simple truth of Scripture gives all of the glory to God and puts man where he belongs in the dust at wits end. If you pander to the heresy of Arminianism which is so prevalent today then I love you enough to warn you that you are perverting the Gospel and those who do so are doubly accursed (Gal 1:8-9) and guilty of the blood of all men (Acts 20:26-27). To prove me wrong, please state what you actually believe the Gospel is.

 

[maxamir]

Your reply is incorrect.

Here is the verse from Luke again.

Luke 8:7
Other seed fell among the thorns; and the thorns grew up with it and choked it out.

Both the wheat and the thorns grew!

But over time the thorns choked the wheat.

The text definitely states that these folk were Christian and were growing.

Over time though they did not endure.

Calvinism will not recognize that these folk were Christians and growing at
any stage!

Christ gave further clarity to the parable of the sower by immediately telling the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13:21-43 where the wheat represents the children of God and the tares (weeds) the children of the devil.

There are many today who think they are wheat but are actually tares, never regenerated and allowed by God to be among the wheat to be used by God for the benefit of the wheat (Pro 21:18) and eventually exposed as not being wheat as Christ confirmed in Matthew 7:21-23 to the many who said they knew Him but were never converted and saved.

Those whom Christ saves, by His grace, endure to the end and willingly suffer and daily lay down their lives to Him. They who are currently in disobedience and sin are either backslidden and will eventually be returned to the Lord or are those who were never regenerated and die in their sin, proving themselves to be reprobates.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

 

[maxamir]

Absolutely WRONG conclusion.

This parable was given to the SOWERS OF THE SEED (the believing disciples), advising THEM, consoling THEM that the Word will not bear fruit everywhere to everyone all of the time. The unbelieving were totally in the dark about this parable, they would never understand it in their present state of unbelief.

In other words, do not be discouraged ***my disciples***......and keep broadcasting the seed, the Word.

Mat 13:13
Therefore speak I to ***them*** in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and ***their*** eyes they have closed; lest at any time ***they*** should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


Mat 13:16
But blessed are ***your*** eyes, for they see: and ***your*** ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17
For verily I say unto ***you***, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ***ye*** see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ***ye*** hear, and have not heard them

Mat 13:18
Hear ***ye*** therefore the parable of the sower.

Jesus then proceeds to give the explanation of the parable......TO THE BELIEVING DISCIPLES! And ONLY to the believing disciples.

continuing reading the same chapter and you will immediately come to the parable of the wheat and the tares (weeds) which further confirms that only those who are chosen by God are the wheat who endure to the end and are saved and not the weeds which were left for God's greater purpose and judgement.

 

[maxamir]

You have ignored the context.

The context in chapter nine concerns Israel and the Gentiles.

Faith versus works.

Now read the context.

Romans 9:11-13
For though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Clearly, God's choice was not by works but by faith.

Which means that the older will serve the younger!

The earliest account of primogeniture to be widely known in modern times
involved Isaac's son Jacob being born second (Genesis 25:26) and Isaac's son,
Esau being born first (Genesis 25:25) and entitled to the birthright, but eventually
selling it to Jacob for a small amount of food (Genesis 25:31–34). (Wiki)

God reversed Esau's birth right.

Jacob the second born was elevated to the recipient of the first born birth right.

The older (Esau) will serve the younger (Jacob).

Chapter nine is all about the failure of Israel.

Israel was the first born, Israel was Esau.

Context, context, context.

Your cherry picked verse (Romans 9:13) in the context destroys your interpretation
of the scripture.

the overall context of this chapter and all of Scripture is about sovereign election in which God is the Potter and can do whatever He likes with His clay. Deal with it!

 

[maxamir]

Be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

so God created the world in six thousand years and not six days?

Are the Scriptures below which speak of man being dead therefore wrong?

Eph 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Are not all men dead in Adam?

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

 

[Magenta]

so God created the world in six thousand years and not six days?

Scripture says what it says. Make of it what you will.

 

[maxamir]

If I stopped at world. You would be correct.

But he said he died for the world so that WHOEVER believes.

Not everyone will believe, so your universal strawman is rejected


I told you not to do this again.

This just shows your pride is deep. And you are unable to hold a conversation. You believe what you were taught, and nothing will change your mind

Good day sir. i will talk to someone who can actually learn to think for themself.

do the words "all the world" below mean every single person without exception?

Luk_2:1 And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.

If I said I had a party and that everyone was there, mean that everyone in the world was there?

You will find that the world all does not mean all without exception all the time but many times means all without distinction. The only ones who believe on Christ are those He prayed for and it was not everyone in the world.

Joh 17:9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.

 

[maxamir]

Scripture says what it says. Make of it what you will.

I do and hope you do too.

Gen 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

 

[Magenta]

Are the Scriptures below which speak of man being dead therefore wrong?

Eph 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Are not all men dead in Adam?

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Jesus' Words in John6-65

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

all historical records of genealogies were destroyed in Jerusalem and all who presume to be directly connected by blood to Abraham are simply the seed of those who were converted to Judaism and therefore have no proof of a direct bloodline as God had destroyed the temple and along with it all of the shadows and types of the old that were hidden behind the veil in Moses which were pointing to Christ in whom all things are fulfilled. The real seed of Abraham are born again Christians!

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Paul confirmed three times below that the old was passing away.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.
2Co 3:11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
2Co 3:12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech—
2Co 3:13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.

Stop hiding behind the veil in Moses and come out into the glorious light of the New Covenant in which Christ tore through the veil of the old which has been made obsolete and vanished away (Heb 8:13).

2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

First of all, God shows us not until the sun, moon, stars, waves of the sea STOP doing what they do that Israel's Offspring will cease to exist.

Thus says Adonai,
who gives the sun as a light by day
and the fixed order of the moon
and the stars as a light by night,
who stirs up the sea so its waves roar,
Adonai-Tzva’ot is His Name:
“Only if this fixed order departs from before Me”
—it is a declaration of Adonai—
“then also might Israel’s offspring cease
from being a nation
before Me—for all time.”

(Jeremiah 31:34-35)

We know this has NOT happened yet.



Secondly, Scientifically speaking, science and genetic testing available today proves that the vast majority of Jews today can be traced genetically back to the Levant area 2,000 years ago.

Genetics expert, Dr. Karl Skorecki, has been involved in several research projects concerning the genetics of Jewish people. In an interview[7], he confirmed that DNA markers for self-identifying Jews show a high degree of relatedness to each other and great affinity to each other, wherever they might be from which indicates a common ancestry, and that the closest non Jewish populations genetically are Levantine populations.

In short, Ashkenazi Jews are highly related to Sephardic Jews, and all of them are closely related to the Jewish populations in the Middle East that have been established since Abraham.


The Promise of God:

• He promised to keep Israel as a nation as long as the sun, moon and stars are in place. (Jeremiah 31:34-35)
• He promised to bring them back to the land, never to be uprooted again. (Amos 9:15)
• And he promised that they would one day recognize his Son, Yeshua, as the Messiah. (Zechariah 12:10)

My suggestion to you is to remove this Entity that has Blinded you towards the People that God has established His Covenant with and will fulfill His Promises He made to.

The Replacement Theology originates straight from the pits of Hell!

 

[Evmur]

Wesley had a perverted man-centred view of the love of God like all Arminians today, caught up with experiences and emotions rather than truth and being inconsistent with the eternal, holy nature of God and Scripture which declares that God loves those who love Him and they only do so because He first loved them (Pro 8:17, 1 Jn 4:19).

Does God love those He justly casts into Hell?

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The pure doctrines of Sovereign Grace cuts God loose [not that He was ever bound] from all limitations and boundaries which the mind of human scholarship and understanding would put upon it.

You talk about idols, you've got a few.

I muse at the term Hyper grace, God's grace is spoken in the scripture in terms of it's super abounding and overflowing nature.

God is not limited by anything, He does what He wants when He wants and in whichever way He chooses. He works according to His own nature. God is Love.

It is our bowels which are straightened.

You say Wesley was controlled by his feelings, actually that letter you quoted shows that Wesley went on with the job of winning souls despite his feelings.

You folk are in bondage to the mind of the flesh. You raise the workings out of men and hold them in an esteem I would only give to God's word.