Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[Magenta]

I know you don’t agree with scripture regarding biblical election

From Ephesians 1:4-6


What are the odds you will apologize for once again falsely accusing me?
I'd say they were slim. Your track record speaks for itself.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

From Ephesians 1:4-6


What are the odds you will apologize for once again falsely accusing me?
I'd say they were slim. Your track record speaks for itself.

would you say his choices are based upon his foreknolwedge of who would repent and accept Christ ?

 

[Magenta]

would you say his choices are based upon his foreknolwedge of who would repent and accept Christ ?

I cannot say what determines His choice, though I certainly do not deny His omniscience as some seem to.
And there is also the matter of God doing all He pleases, for His own glory, and His Word not returning void.

John 3:16

 

[maxamir]

Bah

I sincerely hope your "Bah" comment was not related to the truth of Scripture and instead was at the revelation of what John Wesley wrote to his brother as quoted below for you to contemplate.

Tomkins quotes at length “a most extraordinary letter [from John Wesley] to Charles in 1766” in which “he bares his soul in the most bleak and moving way:”

In one of my last [letters] I was saying that I do not feel the wrath of God abiding on me; nor can I believe it does. And yet (this is the mystery), I do not love God. I never did. Therefore I never believed, in the Christian sense of the word. Therefore I am only an honest heathen … And yet, to be so employed of God! And so hedged in that I can neither get forward nor backward! Surely there was never such an instance before, from the beginning of the world! If I ever have had that faith, it would not be so strange. But I never had any other evidence of the eternal or invisible world than I have now; and that is none at all, unless such as faintly shines from reason’s glimmering ray. I have no direct witness (I do not say, that I am a child of God, but) of anything invisible or eternal.
And yet I dare not preach otherwise than I do, either concerning faith, or love, or justification, or perfection. And yet I find rather an increase than a decrease of zeal for the whole work of God and every part of it. I am borne along, I know not how, that I can’t stand still. I want all the world to come to what I do not know (p. 168; italics mine).​

 

[maxamir]

I do not believe in man's choosings or his ability to "choose" or to "accept Christ" or "deciding for Christ"

We are born again not by the will of man or by the will of the flesh but by the will of God. I am in the Sovereign Grace stream of theology.

The difference I have with you is you believe God's purpose in this is to EXCLUDE people, I believe God's purpose in predestination and election is to INCLUDE people.

We are chosen to be a city set upon a hill, not to exclude people but to be a hope and a refuge for the lost and weary of this world where they may find shelter and succour.

The election of the church can be traced to Abraham, he is the father of the election. The purpose was that "in you shall the families of the earth bless themselves" Only Abe and his seed were elect or chosen. But all who rode with him were saved, Lot was saved.

Your comments about Wesley are reprehensible.

If you were consistent in your theology you would know that not all are chosen for salvation even though the Gospel is commanded to be proclaimed to all for to the elect it is an aroma of life unto life and to the reprobate it is an aroma of death unto death (2 Cor 2:15-17).

The Scriptures make plain that God excludes the proud and openly resists them. There are only two types of people in this world, the humbled and the proud, the children of God and children of the devil, the sheep and the goats, the wheat and the tares, the seed of the Woman and the seed of the serpent, the elect and the reprobate.

I do not desire anyone to be damned but I know that God is good in all things including His perfect judgement which I surely deserve and spend my life lovingly warning everyone in prayer that they would be humbled and thank God I do not know those who are damned and therefore commit everyone to His goodness even those who do evil to me as commanded in Scripture.

I can not help if you are offended by one of your idols being exposed as a heretic by his own writings and hope that you would exercise discernment with everyone including myself and what I say..

 

[maxamir]

Literal application vs spiritual application

If it is spiritual it will become literal.

 

[maxamir]

I don't think the entire New Testament had been written at the time that Paul,
penned this letter to Timothy.

So was Paul referring to the Old Testament in your quotation (2 Timothy 3:16)?

Did Paul see his own letters as scripture or as inspired letters?

the revealed Word of God is Scripture which was sealed before the end of the first century and its revelation was made known to those to whom it was given to write it as confirmed below by Paul himself.

1Co 11:23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread;

Rom_16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began

2Ti_2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel,

and by Peter who described the epistles of Paul as being a part of the Scriptures.

2Pe_1:21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

2Pe_3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

 

[maxamir]

"Dead" like all words has a range of meaning connected to the context of the passage and the original language, I know you like this meaning best which supports your five point dogma but it is on the reductionist side of interpretation.

what do you think God meant in Genesis 2:17?

 

[maxamir]

I can assure you that I am well aware of the verses you would quote.

The parable of the sower and the seed clearly demonstrates that in the second verse
below (Luke 8:7). Those people heard and grew in faith but were eventually overcome.

That is impossible in Calvinism.

Luke 8:5
The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road, and it was trampled underfoot, and the birds of the sky ate it up.

Luke 8:7
Other seed fell among the thorns; and the thorns grew up with it and choked it out.

Luke 8:8
And yet other seed fell into the good soil, and grew up, and produced a crop a hundred times as much.” As He said these things, He would call out, “The one who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

the parable was given as a warning to the many who hear the Word and never bear fruit and endure to the end and be saved as was the case of those mentioned below. Most who call themselves Christians today have never been regenerated or are false converts.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

 

[maxamir]

Here is a verse you would quote.

Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Which has nothing to do with Calvinism. The selection of Jacob concerned the lineage
of the Christ. Jacob represented God's grace through faith ultimately. But Esau represented
the will of man and legal works for justification.

you mention the will of man in Jacob and his legal works but fail to realise that God's eection was made before they were born and could do anything.

Rom 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

If you have a hard time contemplating that God actually hates certain people then how do you cope with all of the verses below that confirm this?

And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them (Lev. 20:23).
And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you (Lev. 26:30).​

For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee (Deut. 18:12).​

For all that do such things, and all that do unrighteously, are an abomination unto the Lord thy God (Deut. 25:16).​

And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters (Deut. 32:19).​

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man (Ps. 5:5-6).​

For the wicked boasteth of his heart’s desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the Lord abhorreth (Ps. 10:3).​

The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth (Ps. 11:5).​

These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren (Prov. 6:16-19).​

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished (Prov. 16:4-5).​

He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord (Prov. 17:15).​

The mouth of strange women is a deep pit: he that is abhorred of the Lord shall fall therein (Prov. 22:14).​

Behold, ye [i.e., idols] are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you (Isa. 41:24).​

Mine heritage is unto me as a lion in the forest; it crieth out against me: therefore have I hated it (Jer. 12:8).​

All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house (Hos. 9:15).​

Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me (Zech. 11:8).​

I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever. And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The Lord will be magnified from the border of Israel (Mal. 1:2-5).​

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (Rom. 9:13).​

 

[maxamir]

Please don't divert but stick with the topic and question of my post. Then maybe we can move on.

BTW, I won't be accepting any of your theological constructs or definitions apart from your explaining them, which includes explaining Scripture you use to proof-text. My concern at this point is that you understand a theological system, but not necessarily Scripture.

the topic is the subject of what faith is and I have said to you that all men know there is a God as is confirmed in Romans 1:20 and that they have a conscience as well which is confirmed in Romans 2:15, these are called general revelation and natural law which serve to make men more accountable before God and it is only special revelation as described below given by God that saves anyone.

2Co_4:6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Now please answer my simple question and tell me on a scale from one to ten where the words that God spoke describing man in Genesis 6:5 as being "only evil continually" fit?

 

[maxamir]

Again, and at this point, Scripture only. Every time I respond to any or your uses of Scripture, even minimally, you divert.

the only diversion I give is to return back to Scripture.

 

[maxamir]

Please don't divert but stick with the topic and question of my post. Then maybe we can move on.

BTW, I won't be accepting any of your theological constructs or definitions apart from your explaining them, which includes explaining Scripture you use to proof-text. My concern at this point is that you understand a theological system, but not necessarily Scripture.

do you agree that Scripture is inspired, inerrant and infallible?

Everyone has certain presuppositions that they bring to Scripture but you must know that Scripture does not contradict itself and there are no literal paradoxes found it but if there are any difficulties in Scripture or seeming contradictions, they can be understood by knowing that Scripture interprets Scripture and comparing any such verses with the immediate and overall context of Scripture.

The chart below may be of help to you.

 

[maxamir]

Please feel free to stop any time. The Ignore function also works well. Thanks for some of the graphics.

You've gone from graphics, to proof-texts without explanation, to diversion, to termination of discussion.

Did you notice no systematic theology is stated in those 2 verses? I don't think I'm the one who diverted at the suggestion we get deeper into certain Scriptures you've simply posted as proof-texting for your systematics.

you continue to falsely assume that I am driven by a Systematic Theology made by those who are Reformed but all I go to is Scripture to check what others have said. The only theology that I will attest to is called Biblical Theology which states that all Scriptures points to Christ. Now please stop your accusations and deal with the Scriptures given to you.

 

[maxamir]

No, I know an evangelist who has her phd + doctorate and has done work with John Hopkins. Her thesis were accepted without question but the moment they learned she was a follower of God they began to act as if she had some missing parts running loose to her logic.

I do not deny the motive of many of the godless institutions today but are you seriously stating that all publications must be disregarded and not even checked for validity because of a supposed bias?

 

[maxamir]

That SEEMS like a very express form of words.

To be 'judicially blinded' one would assume, could mean 'to be blinded by the Judiciary and perhaps expressly to be 'blinded' by a Senior Judge' else, to be blinded by The Law.

Seeing as that latter designation would necessarily include a sense of your Calvinism i.e. your determination to apply a biblical and necessary fact of the Sovereignty of God with the TULIP designations and especially unconditional Election alongside Limited Atonement, then there MUST absolutely be a Legal Contract that can govern Civic and {public square precepts) to outwardly uphold in conduct and behaviour those Sovereign Graces that Our Lord Gives.

So I politely suggest to you dear brother that you may NOT have understood your own words, as you ask them.

Their prerequisite to understanding your question can only be taken from the clausal direction of the first clausal threshold.

In Language you need to have a way to 'anticipate' ALL misunderstandings and at least sense when we have taken a domain conceptual route to a matter that had the Barristers of England being directed by their Noble Lords of the Upper House, both Spiritual and Temporal to have regard to the Book of Romans for more than an Hundred Years, before they abrogated their power to the Lower House and to the Secular Judiciary that was already in the wings of warning. Those warnings were expressed in both Houses and are recorded to the beginning of the 19th Century in men such as Lord Wellington and Robert Peele. On the opposing benches Earl Grey and his Whigg Set.

In Britain Calvin is a simple matter to understand if one has at least some sense of former times reaching back into the closing vestige of the 19th Century when simultaneously America began its relentless Rise to World Domination. Thankfully we had our foot in both camps for the very same reason we now wrestle to settle a matter that is so simple in truth that even a child can grasp it.

If we desire to properly express and present in our conduct and speech, where our behaviour is in our OWN control, then in that place we can offer our lives up to Christ with confidence because we have a settled legal contract upon which to stand. First written in Christs' own blood and expressed through His graces in our Sovereign King. Did you watch the Coronation of His Majesty King Charles III ?

But I do take your point, that were it in fact the case that a claimed believer did NOT understand that our spirits [in our unbelief] are dead and that we NEED Christ in such a condition, then of course he must be a blind man.

I hope you don't mind dear brother but my view is to take a more formal linguistic position and consider how to parse the greek of the New Testament and 'make sense' of how it is that new birth and sanctification are better understood compassionately if we intelligently understand what Salvation means from a Biblical and Greek definition of terms amounting to a legal argument that gave Britain enormous confidence to take the gospel into the farthest reaches of the Earth.

America has now also come to the fore as the same ambitious man as his wayward King of former times. And what America brings is God without His Law and God without His sure Graces. Britain is no better off by now.

I could give you the script to make your own sight of this kind of approach. It MAY also help you to be 'less' forthright in your honesty.

Thank you for your extended response but I find succinct answers to be of more benefit. The judicial blindness that I was speaking of was that given by God to the proud and I am glad you finally confirmed this but it seems like you describe the man as blinding himself which is true in the sense that it is his sin that God uses to keep them in blindness.

 

[maxamir]

here is the who issue in a nutshell

people do not want to discuss the word of God. They want to pit arminian against Calvin. Well guess what, 90 % of the churches are neither calvin nor arminian..

Yet we have this fifth so deep. That if you believe in OSAs. Well your a calvinist, and I must defeat you no matter what

Or if you believe in NOSAS you must be Arminian so I must defeat you no matter what.

the problem is, People w=believe in OSAS and reject calvinism ( I am one of them)

in the same token, people believe in NOSAS and reject arminian doctrine.

yet no one can discuss anything, because it has to be one or the other.

did Christ come to secure salvation for His people or did He come to simply make salvation possible for those who would choose Him? Please tell me which one gives God all of the glory and if it is true that God said that man is spiritually dead then how can a dead man choose God?

These things are not new and have been discussed for hundreds of years. One of those discussions took place over many months early in the seventieth century by a large group of ministers and they overwhelmingly came to the conclusion that Arminianism is heresy.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I do not deny the motive of many of the godless institutions today but are you seriously stating that all publications must be disregarded and not even checked for validity because of a supposed bias?

I am a Gray/Silver Jewish bloodline that can trace my heritage back to before 30 A.D. Israel and I am positive several Jewish families can also trace their heritage back to before the Destruction of 70 A.D. And sure, maybe those who moved to Israel since the Nation's rebirth cannot trace all of their bloodlines. That is a possibility. Just pointing out that some of us can. Some of us departed Israel and went South rather than to North Europe. Some of us made it to the new America in the early 1600's rather than after the 1930's. We know who is who amongst our inner circles. But I doubt many outsiders do without using a bloodline.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

^
We know that our bloodline goes further than Abraham himself, to his Great Grandfather Noah and further back to Noah's great Grandfather Enoch.

Obviously, everyone comes from Adam and Eve. But not everyone has the same WOMEN in their lineages.

 

[Magenta]

what do you think God meant in Genesis 2:17?

Genesis 2:17