Election teaches that salvation comes from the Lord.

[Cameron143]

Many believe being able to make choices = free will. But no, Cameron, that is not the point of contention I refer to, either, though it is one of them. Sure, everyone makes choices. But there are those who claim they did not have a choice. One even recently asserted that being drawn meant being forcefully dragged away while also claiming he was not forced but had no choice. There are those who believe if they or anyone chooses or accepts or receives or needs to repent and believe or any of the things Scriptures describe as attending and/or accompanying salvation you have nullified the grace and gift of God. I am aware that there are those who believe the natural man is free to choose not to sin and free to choose to believe in God though they are hostile in their minds toward Him, even though such a person is called a slave to sin. There is a wide variety of beliefs and a good deal of confusion around the issue...

You gave the explanation for all of it...God comes to each person individually and personally. That shaped by teaching of various denominations and personal dispositions leads to the various accounting of salvation. That's why people have so many different answers concerning salvation.

 

[Cameron143]

But the Holy Spirit only came to them because they were already saved and saved because of Jesus, not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit just sealed them and their salvation. But it happened after they were saved not before.

But the Holy Spirit had already placed them in Christ when He circumcised their hearts.

 

[Moses_Young]

But the Holy Spirit had already placed them in Christ when He circumcised their hearts.

I thought receiving the Holy Spirit was the same as being sealed by Him, which is the same as having one's heart circumcised. Would the Holy Spirit indwell one whose heart was uncircumcised? Isn't the heart circumcision the seal?

 

[Cameron143]

I thought receiving the Holy Spirit was the same as being sealed by Him, which is the same as having one's heart circumcised. Would the Holy Spirit indwell one whose heart was uncircumcised? Isn't the heart circumcision the seal?

One is saved when the are placed into the body of Christ. This is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12:13. It is a
nonexperiential reality that positionally takes us out of the kingdom of darkness, and places us in the kingdom of the Son. It is what is referred to as the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
A seal is an outward and experiential event. When the king wrote a letter, wax was poured on the letter and a signet ring was used to seal the letter and authenticate its source. The same is true when a believer is sealed. God puts His mark, so to speak, on the believer. It is God's confirmation to the believer and all present that God has genuinely wrought salvation in them. We see this the day of Pentecost, and throughout the book of Acts. In the early church it occurred often, and often directly subsequent to the inner work. Today it is little understood or taught, especially in western culture, and is often left unexperienced.
Paul found such a group of believers in Acts 19. Notice, they were disciples, but had experienced no outward manifestation of the Spirit.
The outward manifestation of the Spirit is the baptism WITH the Holy Spirit spoken of by John the Baptist of Jesus...I baptize with water, but He will baptize WITH the Holy Spirit and with fire. The inward work of God that transforms an individual is the baptism OF the Spirit which places us into the body of Christ. They are 2 separate realities.
Because they are often taught as being the same reality, the modern church has been robbed of a great blessing from God. It is probably why the current and true church lacks any real power and largely remains impotent in our time. But it was the power of God that worked through the early church to transform the world in the 1st century.

 

[Mem]

The veil on their heart is the spiritual foreskin that needs to be torn from top to bottom. And once that veil is removed, there's no reattaching it, at least not without an obvious scar developing that would then leave you with a sort of frankensteinfurter.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

But the Holy Spirit had already placed them in Christ when He circumcised their hearts.

The Holy Spirit did not come into effect until after Jesus left. Jesus said He must go in order so the Spirit could come. So they were saved by Jesus alone and then later sealed by the Holy Spirit. That is what the BIBLE claims. It does not make your claim at all. And it aligns with Acts 2:38, Ephesians 1:13, Acts 10.

 

[Cameron143]

The Holy Spirit did not come into effect until after Jesus left. Jesus said He must go in order so the Spirit could come. So they were saved by Jesus alone and then later sealed by the Holy Spirit. That is what the BIBLE claims. It does not make your claim at all. And it aligns with Acts 2:38, Ephesians 1:13, Acts 10.

You are speaking of the Promise of the Father spoken by the prophet Joel...the outpouring of the Spirit.
The Spirit has been in the world from the beginning...Genesis 1:2.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The Holy Spirit did not come into effect until after Jesus left. Jesus said He must go in order so the Spirit could come. So they were saved by Jesus alone and then later sealed by the Holy Spirit. That is what the BIBLE claims. It does not make your claim at all. And it aligns with Acts 2:38, Ephesians 1:13, Acts 10.

amen the Holy Ghost hadn’t been given yet to the church

“In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”
‭‭John‬ ‭7:37-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He went here and she’s it abroad i to the hearts of believers

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:32-33‬ ‭

beforehand however God had given several people the spirit for one example John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost from the womb also several ot prophets and judges had received the spirit and prophecied by it

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You are speaking of the Promise of the Father spoken by the prophet Joel...the outpouring of the Spirit.
The Spirit has been in the world from the beginning...Genesis 1:2.

Peter twice shows us the Spirit is also the Spirit of the Lord. We know Jesus, the Lord, is Creator. The WORD was Spirit before becoming flesh. So Genesis 1:2 is best explained by the Bible not doctrine.


I am not even questioning the triunity of God here just stating Biblical fact rather than what humans (the RCC) voted on and made into a doctrine.

 

[Genez]

You are speaking of the Promise of the Father spoken by the prophet Joel...the outpouring of the Spirit.
The Spirit has been in the world from the beginning...Genesis 1:2.

Joel speaks of the Millennium.

Peter referenced it at Pentecost to show the shocked Jews who knew the Torah that what was taking place was Biblical in function.

............

 

[Cameron143]

Peter twice shows us the Spirit is also the Spirit of the Lord. We know Jesus, the Lord, is Creator. The WORD was Spirit before becoming flesh. So Genesis 1:2 is best explained by the Bible not doctrine.


I am not even questioning the triunity of God here just stating Biblical fact rather than what humans (the RCC) voted on and made into a doctrine.

Romans 8:9 says anyone without the Spirit does not belong to Christ. Are you suggesting that Abraham did not belong to Christ? That Abraham was not redeemed and not a partaker of the promises of God?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Peter twice shows us the Spirit is also the Spirit of the Lord. We know Jesus, the Lord, is Creator. The WORD was Spirit before becoming flesh. So Genesis 1:2 is best explained by the Bible not doctrine.

“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him,

and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:21-22‬ ‭


“And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear….. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:33, 37-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJ

“At that day (when they received the spirit ) ye shall know that

I am in my Father,( God)

and ye in me,( son of God )

and I in you.” ( man )
‭‭John‬ ‭14:20‬ ‭

 

[Cameron143]

Joel speaks of the Millennium.

Peter referenced it at Pentecost to show the shocked Jews who knew the Torah that what was taking place was Biblical in function.

............

It was the fulfillment of Joel 2:28 on the day of Pentecost.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him,

and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:21-22‬ ‭


“And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear….. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:33, 37-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJ

“At that day (when they received the spirit ) ye shall know that

I am in my Father,( God)

and ye in me,( son of God )

and I in you.” ( man )
‭‭John‬ ‭14:20‬ ‭

That is 100% correct Brother

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Joel speaks of the Millennium.

Peter referenced it at Pentecost to show the shocked Jews who knew the Torah that what was taking place was Biblical in function.

............

Peter is explaining that what Joel said would happen the pouring out of Gods spirit on all flesh ( Jew and gentile ) had just began to happen the ot prophets were foretelling the time of the gospel and day of pentocost

“But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

They were all foretelling Jesus and the gospel which had come

“and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. …Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

… Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:20-22, 24, 26‬ ‭

salvation would begin in Jerusalem before it’s destruction and would spread from there to all this is the story the prophets foretold in the scriptire they always had been foretelling Jesus and his word that would save

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Romans 8:9 says anyone without the Spirit does not belong to Christ. Are you suggesting that Abraham did not belong to Christ? That Abraham was not redeemed and not a partaker of the promises of God?

No one who comes to Christ is sealed before being saved.
That happens after they're saved.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

 

[Pilgrimshope]

They are sealed.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

What does that mean being sealed with the spirit until the day of redemption ?

 

[PaulThomson]

No, we don't know that.
Your post makes doesn't make sense to me.

[Rom 8:28-30, 32-33 KJV]
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. ...
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.

[Rom 8:28-30, 32-33 KJV]
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God (i.e. the community in Christ), to them (the community in Christ) who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow (the community in Christ) , he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren (the community in Christ) .
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate [to be conformed to the image of His son] (i.e. the community in Christ) them (the community in Christ) he also called: and whom he called, (the community in Christ) them (the community in Christ) he also justified: and whom he justified, (the community in Christ) them (the community in Christ) he also glorified. ...
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all (all the community in Christ) ), how shall he not with him also freely give us (the community in Christ) all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect (i.e. the community in Christ) ? [It is] God that justifieth.

The "us" is arguably the entire community of believers (the church) that God anticipated would be gathered together by faith in Christ Jesus, and not specific individuals identified individually before creation. This is a reasonable understanding of the text as it is written.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

What does that mean being sealed with the spirit until the day of redemption ?

When we are saved and then filled with the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God (or as Peter says twice, Spirit of the Lord)...Makes sense because you accept Jesus and filled with His Spirit...the being Sealed in my way of explaining is the spiritual documentation of Adoption. We have become joint-heirs, sons of God, our father is Father God.

And we are sealed if we do as Jesus said:
4 Abide in me, and I in you.

14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.

 

[Cameron143]

No one who comes to Christ is sealed before being saved.
That happens after they're saved.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

Sealing is outward, not inward. No one places a seal on the inside of the letter. It is always placed on the outside, and it confirms and authenticates what is on the inside.

I addressed earlier the difference between being baptized BY the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ...1 Corinthians 12:13, and the baptism WITH the Holy Spirit done by Christ...Matthew 3:11...and spoken of in Ephesians 1:13.