Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[Rhomphaeam]

The KJV has it "the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" ... the question is who fitted them? Nobody starts out a murderer though they may have the propensity for it. We have to learn how to fight, to kill, we need to be trained. We even have to learn how to lie successfully, how to seduce, nobody is born drunk or a drug addict. These be the things that fit us for destruction.

Yes logic demands, that's what I said to you. You are going by human logic. Calvin reluctantly admitted that all logic dictates that if God chose some for to be saved then He must have passed over all others. It's human logic.

It is only true if predestination and election are doctrines that apply per se to salvation. They do not. They apply to our being conformed to the image of the Beloved, God's Son. We all want to be like Jesus, this is a wonderful doctrine for it shows us that it is God's will that we should.

Once again we are chosen in Christ before the world was founded to be a people for the praise of God's glorious grace. Again wonderful, we all want to tell of His wonders.

... none of this excludes a single soul from being saved. Indeed we are to be a city set upon a hill, not to exclude but to be a beacon of hope for whoever is weary and sad, in need of shelter. We are the church the city of refuge. THAT'S what we are predestined and chosen for.

Few there be that find the narrow gate but those who do God sends down to the broad way that leads to destruction to pull men off it and lead them to the narrow way as happens in revival. The Great Awakenings.

Now I said these were tricky scriptures that need careful consideration. You mention the Potter and the clay. But there is nothing wrong with the clay when it was created, it was perfectly good for the purpose it was created for. The decisions concerning how to manage, how to fashion the clay comes after the fall [we are speaking about men, not clay]

God is still King, He still has charge of His now fallen creation. He has as Potter to decide how He will make use of His spoiled clay.

Have you ever tried to plumb the depth of evil in man? men like Hitler or Stalin or Mao ze Dong? .... Judas Iscariot? Pharoah? what makes them what they are? In every case it is ambition, greed, greed for power. Those things are not of God, not created by Him or in any way imparted by Him. How and why God chooses these men to be what they become is a deep, deep mystery in God Himself. He only can see what is the heart of every man.

But all these things are God's will in the light of an already fallen creation. Paul speaks about a good and perfect will of God which we are to seek.

Lastly you talk about Elijah's remnant. But with Mt Carmel and the ministries of Elisha and King Jehu the remnant became the whole house of Israel. They kept the covenant alive and in operation.

That's nicely put @Evmur old son.

 

[Evmur]

That's nicely put @Evmur old son.

long time no see ... are you well?

 

[Rhomphaeam]

long time no see ... are you well?

Still on the fighting horse, but unlike King Jehu I won't be trampling the lovely Queen Jezebel. I truly love the discourse that is implied when we take a sound biblical and prophetic approach to our present difficulties. Elisha on Mount Carmel and the Shullamite women is a lesson in humility in an environment where God raises up his servants to tear down the prophetic babblers and we see (like Elisha) that God has withheld something from us. In that place both the clerk to the Prophet and the Prophet must fall silent and listen to the woman's distress. How easily that decency is now milked to the full, as it was historically refused.

Apart from that brother, I am the same Calvinist miserable old git I have always been., You cheer me up no end Evmur.

 

[studier]

credited to, reckoned to, accounted to, imputed to all mean the same thing that the righteousness that Abraham received from God was given to him through through the instrument of faith which was given to him by grace. It is God who gives man knowledge which is faith and that is why He is the Author and Finisher of it (Heb 12:2).

So, now you're saying what I've been saying, correct?

God gives men faith in the sense that He gives men the content for their faith = THE FAITH.

But, this is different than God giving men faith so they can believe. Instead it is God giving men THE FAITH so they have what's necessary to believe. IOW, all men have the faculty, but not all men have heard THE FAITH and those who have, either accept it or reject it. And if all men have the faculty, then we have to discuss Total Depravity which I think you said is foundational to the rest of the acronym. And then we have to discuss how Acts re: Lydia applies and whether that event is general to be used of all. And then we have to discuss every section of Scripture the Reformed system thinks proves itself.

It seems easier to drop the systems and read and interpret Scripture in Christ in Spirit. There's too much real estate being used for denominational division. I know you like graphics:

 

[Evmur]

Paul clearly stated that in the preaching of the Gospel the righteousness of God is revealed (Rom 1:17) and continued to describe how God justly hands men over to the evil that they love unto their greater condemnation and demonstration of His righteousness (Rom 3:5) which is most clearly seen at the cross where Christ satisfied that which an eternity in Hell could never do for His people.

The Word of God is a double edged sword which cuts both ways. It is an aroma of life unto life to some (the elect) and to others (the reprobate) it is an aroma of death unto death (2 Cor 2:15-16). This is why Christ told the people of His time that they were more accountable than Sodom and Gomorrah for they saw His miracles and heard His Gospel but never repented and the same warning needs to be given to all who hear the Gospel today!

This particular passage of scripture is very special to me.

I was not saved, I was Catholic but I had become interested by a gospel minister and had bought a bible, the Living bible a version I would heartily recommend.

I was reading this very chapter on a long train journey. All those sins, big black words full of thunder, reprobate ... dear me, how awful it all is.
I turned the page to chapter 2 and got a shock [in the Living bible] "Just a minute, you may be thinking how awful these people are but YOU are doing the very same things"

It fell on me like a ton of bricks. All those people who fall into that great list of sin can be saved ... you may say reprobate means they cannot. When it says God gave them up you may think He has given them up forever. Stop thinking that way. You are or were Just like them. God had mercy upon me and you and He will have mercy.

You speak about Sodom and Gomorrah ... do you believe the present day miracles? Sodom and Gomorrah would have repented and many who are living the reprobate lifestyle today are finding Christ through miracle ministry.

Think carefully.

 

[studier]

what precedes the new birth is spiritual death and blindness wherein man who lost the image and likeness of God in the Fall became cursed in Adam, a slave to sin and Satan, who blinds people from seeing the truth and believing unless they are born again in Christ who is the Image of God who restores His image in His people which is true righteousness, holiness and an intimate knowledge of God (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10).

Systematic theology. Chicken or the egg...

Eph 4:24 has Christians actively putting on the new man which God prepared for them. God prepares > man dresses. This speaks of Christian sons - not infants - doing what they're supposed to do. It does not speak of daddy dressing them.

Col3:10 is similar. 3:9 says Christians have put off the old man and have put on the new man.

Disregarding context and active voice verbs causes problems

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

but how can one have faith when they are dead as you confirmed?

How can they do anything? Did Adam, who was dead, in faith allow God to cover him with the skin of a dead animal (imagin the horror of this being the first death in all creation?)

How can one believe and choose the kingdom of God if they can't even see it unless they are first born again as Christ confirmed? (John 3:3).

Jesus told them how to be born again, By trusting in him, by looking to the cross. ( vs 14 - 18) This is how you are born again, You have it backwards

Sadly, because you do not yet know who God truly is, you therefore do not yet know who man truly is and that it is impossible for man to do anything to be saved (Mark 10:26-27) unless God is the first cause by granting the gift of faith through the preaching of the Gospel.

Romans 1 destroys this argument, they do know who God is, they hide this truth in their hearts and God allows them to do it. Hence since they know who God is, they have no excuse.

Your right, Man can not do anything to be saved, God must save them, But God is not going to force you to be saved. He offeres salvation to all. But we must chose to say yes lord, i want this..

Psa_119:49 Remember the word to Your servant, Upon which You have caused me to hope.

2Co 4:6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Until God humbles you to submit to this plain truth of Scripture you will remain judicially blinded to the truth that salivation belongs to the Lord (Psa 3:8) and not the choice of man as you foolishly assume.

Non of this refutes John 3: 14 - 18

 

[Evmur]

As I have already explained, God decreed by secondary causes that sin should enter the world for His greater glory.

Man could never truly know that he was created for good or what good was until he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

None of that looks or tastes like scripture truth. Where does the scripture say God decreed by secondary causes that man should sin?

It's what men suppose, it is human thinking. The scripture say "Thou shalt not" that was [and is] God's decree.

Do you have electricity in your home? do you allow your children to play with the wires or the electric box? don't you tell them to leave it alone, don't you insulate?

The tree of knowledge of good and evil was I'm sure necessary to creation. But God strictly charged the man to live it alone.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Abraham can then boast before God, can't he?

He can? How?

Did Abraham save himself? No

Did abraham earn the righteousness of God? No

What did paul say?

Romans 4: 4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.


5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

As you can see plainly see, it is not of works. But of our faith in God to which and through God credits us as rightious. Just as Paul said in eph 2. we have been saved by GRACE through FAITH and not of ourselves, it is the GIFT OF GOD, not of works lest anyone should boast.

Your trust in someone elses work is not you saving yourself. You can't boast because you did not do anything.

1Co 1:26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
1Co 1:27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
1Co 1:29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.

Sorry, But Paul. who taught Gods mercy and grace through faith, Boasted in God. as I do. as Abraham did.\

This nonsensical belief if I trust someone else to do all the work to save me is something I can boast of is just that. Nonsensical. and not found in the word of God

 

[studier]

It seems like you have not yet realised that man is as described by Ezekiel in the valley of dry bones which did not live until God had spoken to them through the prophesy of the Prophet in the same manner that God uses the Gospel to bring back from the dead His people today.

Eze 37:4 Again He said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD!
Eze 37:5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live.

Eze 37:10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.

God first chooses, then calls, then justifies those He glorifies. This is known as the golden chain of redemption because all of the glory goes to Him alone!

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has not realized some things. But your assessment of me is through the lens of strict Reformed theology. So, please pardon me for not accepting your assessment.

As for all of these proof-texts, they're becoming too much in quantity. The ones I've responded to are simply being repeated as if I haven't responded. My experience when in discussions with some having a systematic mindset is that we're dealing with a 6th Sola - Sola System X - which in effect has negated Sola Scriptura.

I'll be ignoring proof-texts until if and when someone wants to discuss one at a time in detail in context and as deep in detail as either of us can go.

 

[Evmur]

the many that are called are those to whom the Gospel is preached but out of all those who hear there are very few who are saved as Christ confirmed in the parable of the sower and His quote below.

Mat_7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Mat_7:14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Just a minute the parable of the Sower and His seed does not show that very few were saved. SOME fell on the path way, on rocky soil, among thorns. SOME fell on good [meaning I suppose cultivated] soil and only this seed gave a harvest 30 fold 60 fold and 100 fold.

The saved refers to the soil not the seed.

When you interpret Matt 7 13 you totally transgress all your reformed beliefs. You say they found the way to life, they entered in, through great difficulty.

Who are these who found the narrow gate? if Jesus is the Gate or Door did you find Him? or did He find you? did He send somebody to tell you? to lead you to the door? That's how God works.

John Wesley [whether you agree with all his doctrines or not] found the narrow gate and spent His whole life bringing multitudes with him. Whitefield, Spurgeon.

God's house will be PACKED, you may not see how that can be but I assure you it will be. The devil's crowd will not be the majority on that day.

 

[Evmur]

I disagree with what you wrote, Evmur.

Gentiles are grafted into Christ not the nation of Israel.

Romans 11:17
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive,
were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich
root of the olive tree.

The root is Christ and the Gentiles were grafted in among them and not
into Israel.

In Christ there is no Jew or Gentile.

The nation of Israel was certainly grafted out of Christ.

The letter to the Romans was written to show why Israel failed.

Romans 9:11-13
For though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad,
so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works
but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.”
Just as it is written: “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Here is where Paul explains why Israel failed.

"according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls"

God's choice was salvation through faith not by works, not by legalism.

God has called everyone to be believe in His Son for righteousness and not by works.

Israel persistently pursued a path of self righteousness via legal works.

Israel can only be grafted back in, if and only if, they believe in Jesus.

Vine I always say vine. I mean of course Olive tree.
Sorry but the scripture says olive tree not Christ
Israel was not grafted out, some branches were grafted out it still remains their olive tree.

 

[cv5]

It is only true if predestination and election are doctrines that apply per se to salvation. They do not. They apply to our being conformed to the image of the Beloved, God's Son. We all want to be like Jesus, this is a wonderful doctrine for it shows us that it is God's will that we should.

Absolutely agree.

Lastly you talk about Elijah's remnant. But with Mt Carmel and the ministries of Elisha and King Jehu the remnant became the whole house of Israel. They kept the covenant alive and in operation.

Correct. Because they loved their God and bent their will to align to His will. They listened to Him. They believed Him.

FF to Joseph and Mary, Simeon, Anna and the apostles. They all believed and were waiting......for Him.

Is God predestinating/forcing any of these persons to believe? No.

 

[cv5]

It seems like you have not yet realised that man is as described by Ezekiel in the valley of dry bones which did not live until God had spoken to them through the prophesy of the Prophet in the same manner that God uses the Gospel to bring back from the dead His people today.

Eze 37:4 Again He said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD!
Eze 37:5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live.

Eze 37:10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.

So God has a free Will and does stuff that He wants. Imagine that.
And what is His purpose in all of this? To do GOOD.
This good being SALVATION! Salvation of the people He foreknew. Saving the souls of men (sons of Jacob and gentile alike) IS THE ULTIMATE PURPOSE of end-time eschatology.

Jesus NAME is Salvation.

Evil men and Satan have a free will too. And they do....evil. On purpose.....to serve their purpose. An evil purpose.

 

[ZNP]

It's clear you are an eschatology buff and have strong opinions. It seems to me that it's been a safer bet to side with the non-sensationalists over the years.

I haven't been keeping up. Did anything major happen by 5/18/24 (or whatever the date) after the aleph was seen in the sky 40 days earlier?

Yes, I think the Iranian President's helicopter went down and he died. Someone described that event like this

 

[ZNP]

Evil men and Satan have a free will too. And they do....evil. On purpose.....to serve their purpose. An evil purpose.

Not really. Satan does God's will and serves God's purpose.

Evil is derivative, it is not creative. Truth is creative, lie is simply a derivative of the truth. You can't have a lie without truth, but you can have truth without a lie.

People ask, "if God is good why did He create an evil Satan". That is the wrong question. God did not create Satan because He is good, He created Satan because He is awesome. We would never truly know how awesome God is if it weren't for Satan. For example if it were not for sin and the fall we would never know God as the savior. If not for sickness we would not know Him as the healer. If not for death we would not know Him as the resurrection.

Also men would not truly have a free will if there were not another choice besides God. Likewise there would be no reward for man if there were no choices for us to make in our life. We can experience God as the savior and we can also choose to be one with God the savior. Both of those things made possible by God who created Satan and gave us free will. So then

1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Ephesians 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

In everything and for all things give thanks

 

[HeIsHere]

but how can one have faith when they are dead as you confirmed?

What does "dead" mean in the context of scripture to you?

 

[Rhomphaeam]

None of that looks or tastes like scripture truth. Where does the scripture say God decreed by secondary causes that man should sin?

It's what men suppose, it is human thinking. The scripture say "Thou shalt not" that was [and is] God's decree.

Do you have electricity in your home? do you allow your children to play with the wires or the electric box? don't you tell them to leave it alone, don't you insulate?

The tree of knowledge of good and evil was I'm sure necessary to creation. But God strictly charged the man to live it alone.

I read that 'secondary causes' by the brother who made it, and of course I can sense just how satisfying it is to believe.

Calvin had the same problem with the King of France (though NOT imbibed correction) and other Catholic personages whom he DID correct, including scholars from truly magnificent colleges. Much of that was of course Calvin's genius for litigant use of language and how a legalistic use of doctrinal and implied civil meanings DO help us to arrive at a true Reformed Doctrine that upholds the Sovereign Grace of God in Christ Jesus - culminating in the Gospel of Grace first brought in by the 'out of season' prophet and apostle, Paul.

The Pauline Doctrines deflect to a definite place that both establishes the undoubted Grace of God and a true gift of faith to believe into Christ and thus to begin the obedient walk in gratitude for the Eternal Gift freely given without merit or favour - other than as a measure of who is saved and who is not saved. Reprobation is in that sphere because it always speaks of a bow man striving after years of training to hit the mark ahead of him. He always finds that when he looses his arrow he sees nothing more ahead of him to his course yet hears the sound of the strike in the tree behind him.

My point being, that on my reading of Calvin including the historical chronology of his walk, Calvin was pressed into explaining how so many Roman Catholics were able to refuse Reformed Doctrine. He was NOT concerned with the heresy unless he was concerned with a/the man. And to that end his doctrines became a powerless show that eventually took on brutal proportions.

And yet - we had the Evangelical Movement with its Presbytery participation along with The Baptist Union and the Church of Scotland, along with many others, both privately funded and supported by the Church Coffers - and they made inroads into the farthest and most dread regions of the Earth, laying down a foundation that is bearing fruit even today. So Calvin is remarkable in his use of language and exegesis of doctrine.

Its tough reading, however, and so we short cut the process and find the 'cheat sheet' and lay claims that we have not properly understood. So no surprises there then!

I think that perhaps Calvin did rather too well and left little room for the need to labour into our own day. Dead legalism is intensely satisfying because it may unintentionally enliven the 'old man' in his evil pride of life, even egotism as we sense it, and then by enforcement he teaches us how to cover our hypocrisy in a white washed lime coat. .

 

[studier]

Yes, I think the Iranian President's helicopter went down and he died. Someone described that event like this

So the Aleph in the sky was a day or so off or did I have the days wrong? Which domino was this, the first or one of the subsequent ones? Are you certain of what you think?

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for the craziness to be terminated. But this would include the sensationalist error that's been going on for ages. And it would include all the eschatological debate and all the theological debate and all the politics and all the... Too many dots to list.

 

[ZNP]

Yes, I think the Iranian President's helicopter went down and he died. Someone described that event like this

Then on the 22nd Ireland, Spain and Norway recognized the Palestinian state. That is a much bigger event than the death of Iranian president, but certainly related.