Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[Calmador]

One of my biggest qualms with a common Calvinist line of thinking is that Faith is a work when that is clearly unbiblical. This video does an amazing job of clearly that up. It was so good I thought it was worth sharing.

https://www.youtube.com/live/oxakEl8BYBE?feature=shared

 

[Niki7]

One of my biggest qualms with a common Calvinist line of thinking is that Faith is a work when that is clearly unbiblical. This video does an amazing job of clearly that up. It was so good I thought it was worth sharing.

https://www.youtube.com/live/oxakEl8BYBE?feature=shared

having been a participant in a good number of 'Calvin is my Hero' threads around here, I don't think anything is going to make a dent in those who are ensnared by that unbibical doctrine....possibly repenting from false beliefs but I wouldn't hold my breath on that one either

nice try tho

 

[HeIsHere]

One of my biggest qualms with a common Calvinist line of thinking is that Faith is a work when that is clearly unbiblical. This video does an amazing job of clearly that up. It was so good I thought it was worth sharing.

https://www.youtube.com/live/oxakEl8BYBE?feature=shared

He does a really good job on many topics for sure. I will need to listen to this video, it is also un-biblical that saving faith is a gift given to some and not others.

I think Winger did a video on this as well?

 

[studier]

One of my biggest qualms with a common Calvinist line of thinking is that Faith is a work when that is clearly unbiblical. This video does an amazing job of clearly that up. It was so good I thought it was worth sharing.

https://www.youtube.com/live/oxakEl8BYBE?feature=shared

I don't normally participate in these discussions, but I had some time to listen to this while doing something else. I listened to the first 31 minutes. So, my comments are with this established. I didn't hear everything he said.

• The first thing I took mental note of was that he spoke of our making a choice, but he did not establish it from Scripture. I'm not saying he cannot do so, but that he did not do so.
• When I was stopping the lesson, he was getting into the concept of faith being absolutely passive. This is not just a Calvinist idea. Pursuant to the Faith Alone in Christ Alone mantra, I know of non-Calvinists who also think this. Their logic and reasoning seems to almost have to go here.

Honestly, I set these arguments aside some time ago. There seems to be no way to change anyone's mind and I'm not certain why we need to do so. It seems debate for the sake of debate. As he said, he views others who see the matter differently, as brothers in the Faith.

It seems clear that Faith is not a work. No matter what, with reason, anyone wants to include in faith or disassociate from faith, God has it defined and settled and it works in spite of these debates.

One of the things I like to interject into these discussions, if and when I do participate, is: Is obedience a work?

NKJ 1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.​

​

If we view this as a command to not only believers to continue in their belief, but also a command to all men to believe (which is the way I read this, in part since there are also other verses that command belief in Jesus Christ), then how do we believe apart from obeying God's command to believe? It seems belief and obedience are simultaneous.​

​

Other than that, Biblical Faith is a big study in our Text. I don't see it as absolutely passive. Then there are also other things to consider about Faith in the full scope of Salvation, which seems clearly to be a process that the sons of God are involved in while they're on the earth. IMO works salvation has become an overblown debate and has trended into absurdity mainly in the pews.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Is obedience a work?

Obedience is simply obedience. And obedience to God and Christ will lead to good works. Good works are the result of being saved, and absence of good works is proof that there was no real salvation.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10)

 

[Foghorn]

One of my biggest qualms with a common Calvinist line of thinking is that Faith is a work when that is clearly unbiblical. This video does an amazing job of clearly that up. It was so good I thought it was worth sharing.

https://www.youtube.com/live/oxakEl8BYBE?feature=shared

I like Mike Winger. It's to bad he is missing all that truth.

 

[studier]

Obedience is simply obedience. And obedience to God and Christ will lead to good works. Good works are the result of being saved, and absence of good works is proof that there was no real salvation.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10)

I see obedience as expected of men and there is no exception.

With that said, based upon what I previously posted, I see simultaneous obedience and faith (or faith and obedience) necessary for initial Salvation (obedience to God's command to believe) and the tested growth in that faith obedience as the growth in the Christian life many label as Sanctification or Progressive Sanctification.

The teacher on the tape made his case for faith not being a work. I'm positing faith and obedience are so vitally intertwined that neither faith nor obedience are a work. And a good work can only be done in faith obedience because, for one thing, there actually is no Biblical Faith apart from obedience.

 

[NEWTOCHRISTIANITY]

What exactly, is CALVINISM? I've heard of the term, but I don't know what it is: please excuse my ignorance.

 

[Inquisitor]

I don't normally participate in these discussions, but I had some time to listen to this while doing something else. I listened to the first 31 minutes. So, my comments are with this established. I didn't hear everything he said.

• The first thing I took mental note of was that he spoke of our making a choice, but he did not establish it from Scripture. I'm not saying he cannot do so, but that he did not do so.
• When I was stopping the lesson, he was getting into the concept of faith being absolutely passive. This is not just a Calvinist idea. Pursuant to the Faith Alone in Christ Alone mantra, I know of non-Calvinists who also think this. Their logic and reasoning seems to almost have to go here.

Honestly, I set these arguments aside some time ago. There seems to be no way to change anyone's mind and I'm not certain why we need to do so. It seems debate for the sake of debate. As he said, he views others who see the matter differently, as brothers in the Faith.

It seems clear that Faith is not a work. No matter what, with reason, anyone wants to include in faith or disassociate from faith, God has it defined and settled and it works in spite of these debates.

One of the things I like to interject into these discussions, if and when I do participate, is: Is obedience a work?

NKJ 1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.​

​

If we view this as a command to not only believers to continue in their belief, but also a command to all men to believe (which is the way I read this, in part since there are also other verses that command belief in Jesus Christ), then how do we believe apart from obeying God's command to believe? It seems belief and obedience are simultaneous.​

​

Other than that, Biblical Faith is a big study in our Text. I don't see it as absolutely passive. Then there are also other things to consider about Faith in the full scope of Salvation, which seems clearly to be a process that the sons of God are involved in while they're on the earth. IMO works salvation has become an overblown debate and has trended into absurdity mainly in the pews.

What you propose is an impossible interpretation of the New Testament.

We are saved the same as Abraham was justified, by believing in God's promise, Jesus Christ.

No one can love their enemies or conduct any Christian works without the Holy Spirit, fact.

You cannot receive the Holy Spirit until you believe in Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise.

Don't be confused regarding faith and works.

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[SomeDisciple]

What exactly, is CALVINISM? I've heard of the term, but I don't know what it is: please excuse my ignorance.

Bad doctrine, made up by a bad person. That's really all you need to know, unless you're a history nerd (like me). If you're a history nerd, there are plenty of resources and directions to resources on John Calvin and Calvinism available on the web.

 

[Blade]

What exactly, is CALVINISM? I've heard of the term, but I don't know what it is: please excuse my ignorance.

Just go search on it. Find those that agree with it then those that don't. For me I would make sure what ever is being said lines up with the word. I don't listen to negative things being said about any that believe Yeshua/Jesus Christ came in the flesh. HAHA as if everything I personally believe is the real truth.

 

[studier]

Don't be confused regarding faith and works.

With respect, I'm aware of all of these arguments and had them inserted into my thinking like most of us have. Then I studied the Text apart from the systems for years.

Rather than proposing theology and quoting the usual verses, I'd ask you to consider looking at what I said re: 1John3:23. Just read the verse and think with a mind cleared of theological training. Just use basic logic or common sense.

• Are unbelievers commanded to believe in Jesus Christ?
  • If they are, then how does a person believe apart from being in obedience to the command - knowing or unknowing obedience - to God's command of men to believe in His Son.

The theological battles over the word "faith" include one that essentially goes:

• Faith Alone
• Faith is never Alone

In part, what this was and is about, is defining Biblically what Faith is and includes. And it's not as simplistic as quoting Heb11.

When we study Faith - all the times it's spoken of in the Text - one of the things that shows up is how it's paralleled to obedience. You quote Romans 10:9. Look ahead a few verses:

• NKJ Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
  • "obeyed" and "believed" are stated in parallel - one used for another - basically being used synonymously.
  • This is not the only time this parallelism shows up in the NC Writings.

If we think more completely about what Biblical Faith is, there is not one verse that speaks of believing the Gospel - believing that Jesus is the Christ - that does not include this concept of also obeying it - obeying Him - submitting to it and to Him if it's easier on your eyes and ears. To believe is to submit or it's not Biblical Faith. Actually belief is a submission, a subordination in accepting something as true.

NKJ 1 Peter 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

NKJ Hebrews 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

There is more to discuss re: Abraham, the Hebrew of Gen15:6 and how it relates to Gen12 which Heb11:8 is picking up in speaking of belief and obedience.

 

[Eli1]

What exactly, is CALVINISM? I've heard of the term, but I don't know what it is: please excuse my ignorance.

It's a casino-based VIP system.
If you win, you win. If you don't you don't.

 

[NEWTOCHRISTIANITY]

Bad doctrine, made up by a bad person. That's really all you need to know, unless you're a history nerd (like me). If you're a history nerd, there are plenty of resources and directions to resources on John Calvin and Calvinism available on the web.

Thanks so much for your answer: @SomeDisciple ; I will do.

 

[NEWTOCHRISTIANITY]

I've just looked CALVINISM up, now; And it sounds terrible!

 

[studier]

What exactly, is CALVINISM? I've heard of the term, but I don't know what it is: please excuse my ignorance.

If I may suggest something. If you're new to Christianity, I wouldn't get bogged down with Calvinism or an ___ism at the moment. In fact all you're likely to get on a forum like this is into an argument about John Calvin's system of theology and those who agree and disagree about it.

Are you attending a church? Do you have a pastor who teaches?

It looks like you are in Australia. I know it's a big continent, but have you seen any posts by @maxamir who also looks to be in Australia and maybe a pastor. Maybe he can provide some guidance. Here's a link to one of his posts.

I have another referral I could suggest, but I'd have to think about it.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

If I may suggest something. If you're new to Christianity, I wouldn't get bogged down with Calvinism or an ___ism at the moment. In fact all you're likely to get on a forum like this is into an argument about John Calvin's system of theology and those who agree and disagree about it.

Are you attending a church? Do you have a pastor who teaches?

It looks like you are in Australia. I know it's a big continent, but have you seen any posts by @maxamir who also looks to be in Australia and maybe a pastor. Maybe he can provide some guidance. Here's a link to one of his posts.

I have another referral I could suggest, but I'd have to think about it.

All he will get from who you just suggested is Calvinism/Reformation. Maybe before you say something like, ""before thinking about this and that to do this""...you study who or what this is all about first. Because you are pushing him into Calvinism/Reformation by your suggestion. Unless of course, that is your actual intention.

 

[NightTwister]

One of my biggest qualms with a common Calvinist line of thinking is that Faith is a work...

No idea where you got that idea. It's not accurate. 99% of the arguments against reformed doctrine (which I prefer to call it) are Strawmen.

 

[studier]

All he will get from who you just suggested is Calvinism/Reformation. Maybe before you say something like, ""before thinking about this and that to do this""...you study who or what this is all about first. Because you are pushing him into Calvinism/Reformation by your suggestion. Unless of course, that is your actual intention.

Please leave intentions aside as you should know you should.

Maybe you grasp or do not grasp the fact that something is taking place within Reformed Theology. I years ago in my own studies which were not based in Reformed Theology began to see that the reformation IMO was still in progress and had a ways to go. We can send new Christians into the same old theological systems or suggest they consider something that is seemingly seeking to resolve some of the tiring old battles. This is the way I personally view NCT so far. From some of what I've read and listened to, if I were to start over, right now I'd like to be exposed to NCT.

I don't know you. What theological system would you identify with, if any, even partially?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Please leave intentions aside as you should know you should.

Maybe you grasp or do not grasp the fact that something is taking place within Reformed Theology. I years ago in my own studies which were not based in Reformed Theology began to see that the reformation IMO was still in progress and had a ways to go. We can send new Christians into the same old theological systems or suggest they consider something that is seemingly seeking to resolve some of the tiring old battles. This is the way I personally view NCT so far. From some of what I've read and listened to, if I were to start over, right now I'd like to be exposed to NCT.

I don't know you. What theological system would you identify with, if any, even partially?

Provisionism aligns with Acts 17 - John 3:16-17 - many other verses that can be applied here.