God and Time

[Pilgrimshope]

There are many observable beginnings and endings that limit the duration of things, where we easily recognise that there is time was time before that beginning and there will be time after that end. The beginning of football game is when the ref blows the starting whistle, and the end is when he blows the final whistle. Time itself does not come into existence when the start whistle is blown, nor does it end when the final whistle is blown. I cannot see any logical reason to assume that time itself began for God when God began creating our particular world.

Well it seems Logical to Me which is what i was saying that’s sort of how I see it but what your saying also is there which is how you see it

I understand your position now and hope you understood mine

 

[Inquisitor]

An interesting philosophical concept to consider is the notion of God’s relationship to time. Many Christian are quick to claim that God is not subject to time. This view is known as atemporalism. At first glance, this view seems sound as it affirms God’s immutability, highlights God’s omniscience and seeks to exalt God as one who sits over the constraints of time.

However, there are some serious concerns with this view. First, if this view is correct, God exists in a constant state of stasis. Everything would be a frozen present to God. Thus, creation, redemption and recreation would all be simultaneous events for God. In fact, it would call into question the very concept of God creating the world ex nihilo. For, how could God create the universe which had not previously existed if, for God, there could never be a first moment of creation. Second, the biblical notion that God became flesh would also be called into question as, there would never be a moment for God when God was not Jesus of Nazareth. Finally, this notion would cause us to reconsider God’s interactions with humanity we see in Scripture that is replete with warnings, answered prayers, forgiveness, anger, love and other acts which indicate God is responding and interacting with humanity based on human actions in time. This view is also popular among Calvinists as they use this philosophical notion as justification for God‘s predetermination of the elect and damned based on his sovereign declaration rather than human response. It would only make sense that if everything is a frozen constant to God, then the moment of creation would also be the moment of salvation. God knowing everything prior to creation would have created the world in such a way as to have predetermined all outcomes.

A second view on God‘s relationship with time is temporalism. This view suggests that God exists in time. In the same way humans are subject to time, so is God. Yet for God, his past is infinite as well as his future. In some ways, this fits many of the Biblical descriptions of God’s interaction with time as he is referred to as one who is “from everlasting to everlasting,” “the first and the last,“ and “before all time and now and forever“ (Jude 25). This is not to say that God is subject to time, as if he is inferior to time itself. Rather, that time is part of God’s essence or being. Theologians from this view hold a range of different theological positions from Reformed theologians, Arminians and openness theologians.

A third view would argue that God is metatemporal. Similar to the temporal view, this view claims that God does exist in time. However, God does stand outside the human timeline. This view holds that there is created time and uncreated time. God stands outside the created timeline of the universe he made, but still exists in his own time which is part of his very essence. Thus, God does interact with humanity based on the flow of time and God, himself, along with his thoughts and actions do have a past, present and future. So the encounters with humanity along time are not merely anthropomorphic as atemporalists would argue, but are genuine responses to past and present actions.

What are your thoughts about God and time? I am interesting in discussing your thoughts and their implications on how we understand the teachings of Scripture.

It's Temporalism.

Of course, God exists within time because He is old and sitting on a throne.

Have you not watched any movies with God sitting on His throne?

Me know too much about God.

 

[Inquisitor]

Absurdities:

Is everyone aware we're debating the application of a term that no one has even defined?

How can we say "time does this or that", if we don't even know what time is?
(I seldom talk to people who can offer an adequate definition of "time." And it's a very serious thing to debate a term we can't define, and haven't studied. If we were actually to be serious about any of this, we'd need an entire thread discussing time itself, before we can even begin to discuss what's God's relationship to it might be. We cannot know God's relationship to a thing, if we don't know what the thing is.)


1.) In many circumstances, merely defining a word properly will ANSWER all the questions surrounding it.... the definition often IS the solution.
2.) If we cannot define a word properly, we have ZERO ability to debate it, because we quite literally have NO IDEA WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.



More things to think about.
God Bless.

.

There are two words that are constantly mentioned, time and eternity, in this thread.

Science is struggling to understand time. Since Quantum theory hints at extra dimensions
beyond our three dimensional space and time. Time being a fourth dimension.

Nor can we contemplate or understand that which is eternal.

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Jesus was both temporal and eternal within one generation.

Mwhaaaaaaaaaaa.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

There are many observable beginnings and endings that limit the duration of things, where we easily recognise that there is time was time before that beginning and there will be time after that end. The beginning of football game is when the ref blows the starting whistle, and the end is when he blows the final whistle. Time itself does not come into existence when the start whistle is blown, nor does it end when the final whistle is blown. I cannot see any logical reason to assume that time itself began for God when God began creating our particular world.

Yes I understand your opinion and thoughts there

 

[Magenta]

Nor can we contemplate or understand that which is eternal.

Ecclesiastes 3:11

 

[maxwel]

Jesus was both temporal and eternal within one generation.

Mwhaaaaaaaaaaa.

The words temporal and eternal are not antitheticals, because they don't necessarily contradict each other.

It's conceivable for God to be both temporal & eternal, because there are 2 different ways in which God can be eternal:
1. God can exist with an infinite amount of time.
2. God can exist without time



But it's all weird and interesting to talk about... that's for sure.
: )

.

 

[posthuman]

The present model of our universe is that it temporally has a beginning and it will have an end; that our unverse's space is limited and curved, so that If one traveled in the same direction through a universe, eventually one will arrive at the same place one left from. Our universe is essentially a bubble of curved space with limits, that has a finite temporal duration. This bubble is called a space-time continuum. The theory is that there may be many other space-time continua scattered throughout a larger space and independent of one another.

i'm not aware of any serious model of the universe that describes it topologically as a torus. multiverse has zero basis in observation: infinite dimensional vector space math is definable but just because any math is definable so snt make all possible math descriptive of reality.

the "space time continuum" is a phrase dating back to Minkowski in the early 1900s soon after Einstein published his theory of relativity. "space time continuum" is ALL SPACE AND ALL TIME represented as one geometry. it can be visuized graphically on a plane with one axis time and the other, 3-space.

to confess God's dwelling place is outside of the space time continuum is to confess God is outside of both space and time.

which is why i said, you're trying to have it both ways.

 

[posthuman]

the ocean is 3 dimensional, a sheet of paper is 2 ((ignoring depth for sake of illustration)).

if i put a piece of paper in the ocean, the water permeates and fills it, but that doesn't make the water 2d just because it can pass through the paper.

if you are a 1d dot on the paper, you can observe in a very limited sense the water, but your ability to observe and interact with the 3d ocean while you are a 1d dot in a 2d world doesn't mean the ocean is 1d like you.

 

[Chaps]

Right. So the question is how can we be “…seated with Christ in Heavenly places…” when we are down here on Earth. But it also says “…vision is for an appointed time…” There’s a mystery to it.

I think that text is referring to our status as victors with Christ, and clearly not referring to our physical placement in the moment.

It's Temporalism.

Of course, God exists within time because He is old and sitting on a throne.

Have you not watched any movies with God sitting on His throne?

Me know too much about God.

I know right…Gary Larsen and his Far Side comics can’t be wrong!

 

[posthuman]

No. if He is both, then He exists both beyond our space-time continuum AND within it. That is, He is everywhere. If He were only outside of our spave time continuum, He would not be in it, and would not be everywhere. If I ascend to heaven, God is there. And if I descend to sheol, God is there. There is nowhere I can escape God's prsence. So scripturally, He is both beyond our limited space-time universe and within it.

((not to scale))




B is not A nor is it contained in A,
but B fills all of A.

being present in A tells you nothing about the scope or native space of A, just like you cannot derive the properties of the set of all complex numbers just by knowing something about the integers between 0 and 400 which are divisible by 17.

 

[PaulThomson]

the ocean is 3 dimensional, a sheet of paper is 2 ((ignoring depth for sake of illustration)).

if i put a piece of paper in the ocean, the water permeates and fills it, but that doesn't make the water 2d just because it can pass through the paper.

But the ocean is present in the paper as well as outside the paper. The ocean is not only outside the paper.

 

[Aaron56]

the ocean is 3 dimensional, a sheet of paper is 2 ((ignoring depth for sake of illustration)).

if i put a piece of paper in the ocean, the water permeates and fills it, but that doesn't make the water 2d just because it can pass through the paper.

if you are a 1d dot on the paper, you can observe in a very limited sense the water, but your ability to observe and interact with the 3d ocean while you are a 1d dot in a 2d world doesn't mean the ocean is 1d like you.

 

[Chaps]

“for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

i think ( just my opinion ) it’s a concept that’s constructed right here , and could not have existed as a concept before this


“By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:3‬ ‭NIV‬‬

meaning

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And God said let there be …….And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. ( how can the concept of what we know as time exist before the earth begins to revolve around the sun ? and we see the first day of this concept “time” )

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: ( these are the first expressions of time )mad he’s creating the universe and ordering it time seems to be a result of the order he is establishing to me just my thought ) and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. ( he’s speaking these things )

And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1, 4-5, 14-15, 17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Time seems to be a construct of the order we see Hod establishing in his creation for mankind to eventually be created in and rule over in an ordered way

Bit once the darkness is divided out then
“On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:25‬ ‭NIV‬‬

day and night first day , …last day Jesus returns .no more night eternity

I wouldnt disagree that God created time as we experience it. However, that is not to say that God doesn’t exist in time or that time is not part of His essence. I think we would all agree that “love” is an eternal attribute of the Triune God. So, while God created “love” as we know and experience it, love is also part of who God is…and therefore an eternal attribute of His nature and being.

 

[maxwel]

I wouldnt disagree that God created time as we experience it. However, that is not to say that God doesn’t exist in time or that time is not part of His essence. I think we would all agree that “love” is an eternal attribute of the Triune God. So, while God created “love” as we know and experience it, love is also part of who God is…and therefore an eternal attribute of His nature and being.

To avoid accidental equivocation, we need to be really careful not to mix eternal divine attributes with anything created and contingent, or accidentally slipping from one category to the other.

God Bless.

.

 

[PaulThomson]

((not to scale))


View attachment 263789

B is not A nor is it contained in A,
but B fills all of A.

being present in A tells you nothing about the scope or native space of A, just like you cannot derive the properties of the set of all complex numbers just by knowing something about the integers between 0 and 400 which are divisible by 17.

If B identifies everything within the B circle, then A is a part of B, and B is not ONLY A.
You seem to be making my point for me.

I have not suggested that we can know everything about the medium/ground of being that is outside of our space-time continuum from observing that medium/ground of being as it appears inside our space-time continuum. Nor have i suggested that we can know the entire extent of our space-time continuum merely from the fact of our being within that space-time continuum.
However, as your Venn diagram shows: The nature of what is in region B is also present in region A.

 

[PaulThomson]

To avoid accidental equivocation, we need to be really careful not to mix eternal divine attributes with anything created and contingent, or accidentally slipping from one category to the other.

God Bless.

.

We should also be careful not to arbitrarily categorise everlasting divine attributes as created and contingent which the Bible does not specifically categorise as created and contingent, such as everlastingness or boundless time.

 

[Burn1986]

I think that text is referring to our status as victors with Christ, and clearly not referring to our physical placement in the moment.


I know right…Gary Larsen and his Far Side comics can’t be wrong!

Thumbs down

 

[PaulThomson]

Absurdities:

Is everyone aware we're debating the application of a term that no one has even defined?

How can we say "time does this or that", if we don't even know what time is?
(I seldom talk to people who can offer an adequate definition of "time." And it's a very serious thing to debate a term we can't define, and haven't studied. If we were actually to be serious about any of this, we'd need an entire thread discussing time itself, before we can even begin to discuss what's God's relationship to it might be. We cannot know God's relationship to a thing, if we don't know what the thing is.)


1.) In many circumstances, merely defining a word properly will ANSWER all the questions surrounding it.... the definition often IS the solution.
2.) If we cannot define a word properly, we have ZERO ability to debate it, because we quite literally have NO IDEA WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.



More things to think about.
God Bless.

.

Maybe you need to get a dictionary.

TIME: the indefinite continued progress of existence and events in the past, present, and future regarded as a whole.

 

[NEWTOCHRISTIANITY]

Scientists, especially atheist scientists, can be so arrogant, can't they!

God created the Universe, including, of course, what we call "time"!

And so I find it very annoying, that a lot of scientists try to "play God"! Who do they think they are?!! And think that Einstein was one of these scientists!

OK; Einstein was very intelligent, but he new absolutely nothing, compared to what God knows!!

 

[PaulThomson]

i'm not aware of any serious model of the universe that describes it topologically as a torus. multiverse has zero basis in observation: infinite dimensional vector space math is definable but just because any math is definable so snt make all possible math descriptive of reality.

the "space time continuum" is a phrase dating back to Minkowski in the early 1900s soon after Einstein published his theory of relativity. "space time continuum" is ALL SPACE AND ALL TIME represented as one geometry. it can be visuized graphically on a plane with one axis time and the other, 3-space.

to confess God's dwelling place is outside of the space time continuum is to confess God is outside of both space and time.

which is why i said, you're trying to have it both ways.

Models of the shape of space-time continua.

https://www.americanscientist.org/a...s,hyperbolic geometry with negative curvature.

I like spherical.