A Visible Sign of the Invisible
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I'm in no way trying to be rude. I just don't understand why people insist on an opinion rather than just accepting what is written in God's word.
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
My answer remains the same:
The Bible reveals tongues is the sign that a person has received the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:4, 38; 10:44-45, 19:6) And it states: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Rom 8:9-11
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
My answer remains the same:
The Bible reveals tongues is the sign that a person has received the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:4, 38; 10:44-45, 19:6) And it states: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Rom 8:9-11
If it were as simple as you say, there would be no forums. There are many factors at work. For example, Psalm 37: says that if we will delight ourselves in the Lord, He will give us the desires of our hearts. What it means is that God will actually place within our hearts His desires. Some would believe from just a simple reading that He would give the individual's current desires.
So scripture must be understood often by intent, and even through revelation. It's not necessarily apparent from simply reading.
And you actually are being rude if someone asks for a particular manner of response and you do it in the manner you choose. Not that I've taken offense, but love actually defers to the other person.
So scripture must be understood often by intent, and even through revelation. It's not necessarily apparent from simply reading.
And you actually are being rude if someone asks for a particular manner of response and you do it in the manner you choose. Not that I've taken offense, but love actually defers to the other person.
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My first church when I got saved was Assemblies of God and had been my church for many years so I understand why you think this.
I do believe in speaking in tongues and I have received that, but I always thought that the Holy Spirit is best confirmed in a Christian by how that person has changed and grown in godliness and obedience to the Lord through the Holy Spirit.
I don't go by speaking in tongues as evidence of the Holy Spirit because that can be faked, but you can't fake a sustained godliness and obedience to the Lord.
Also, the godliest people I know don't speak in tongues, but the Holy Spirit is very evident in them.
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I do believe in speaking in tongues and I have received that, but I always thought that the Holy Spirit is best confirmed in a Christian by how that person has changed and grown in godliness and obedience to the Lord through the Holy Spirit.
I don't go by speaking in tongues as evidence of the Holy Spirit because that can be faked, but you can't fake a sustained godliness and obedience to the Lord.
Also, the godliest people I know don't speak in tongues, but the Holy Spirit is very evident in them.
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Truth is established by 2-3 scripture references. (Matt.18:16, 2 Cor. 13:1) I am aware of three accounts that specifically state all those who received the Holy Spirit spoke in tongues. (Acts 2:4, 33; 10:44-46; 19:6) Are you aware of any scriptures that reveal there's another sign? If so, I would really like you to share them because I'm not familiar with any.
First let me say, I appreciate your response. But please consider that as human beings we can think many things. Evidence of this is the many denominations that exist worldwide. Many denominational teachings attest to the fact its founders were comfortable with only certain parts rather than scripture as a whole.
To reject speaking in tongues as evidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit because people can fake the experience is unwise. People can and do fake many things. However, keep in mind imitation relies upon something authentic.
God's word states there is but one common salvation and everyone is to earnestly seek out the truth that was first delivered to the saints/disciples. (Jude 3) The biblical record is clear. The truth concerning tongues as the sign of receiving the Holy Spirit is revealed through the detailed record of the disciples and others (120) at Pentecost, and on at least 2 other occasions, and is alluded to in Acts 8 as detailed in this Thread.
Also, remember Jesus words in Luke 11:13. He said those who have not received the Holy Spirit should ask the Father for the gift. As I wrote this just now, I was given more insight. Not only do Jesus' words prove the Holy Spirit is not always received spontaneously. God opened my eyes to the fact that the account reveals once again, just as the Acts 8 account does, a person can know without a doubt if they have the Holy Spirit. How?
To reject speaking in tongues as evidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit because people can fake the experience is unwise. People can and do fake many things. However, keep in mind imitation relies upon something authentic.
God's word states there is but one common salvation and everyone is to earnestly seek out the truth that was first delivered to the saints/disciples. (Jude 3) The biblical record is clear. The truth concerning tongues as the sign of receiving the Holy Spirit is revealed through the detailed record of the disciples and others (120) at Pentecost, and on at least 2 other occasions, and is alluded to in Acts 8 as detailed in this Thread.
Also, remember Jesus words in Luke 11:13. He said those who have not received the Holy Spirit should ask the Father for the gift. As I wrote this just now, I was given more insight. Not only do Jesus' words prove the Holy Spirit is not always received spontaneously. God opened my eyes to the fact that the account reveals once again, just as the Acts 8 account does, a person can know without a doubt if they have the Holy Spirit. How?
The Holy Spirit will confirm it to each individual directly. He doesn't have to cause them to speak in tongues for them to know.
They'll know when the Holy Spirit when He gives them wisdom and understanding as they study the Scriptures and have the supernatural ability to actually live a godly and obedient life to the Lord. Growing resistance to habitual sins is also a sure sign that the person has the Holy Spirit.
John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
John 16:13
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.
John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
John 15:26
“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.
These verses show how we can know we have the Holy Spirit. None of them say speaking in tongues is one of them.
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I am sorry you found my unwillingness to state what I believe to be rude. However, it has been my experience that those who ask for a yes or no answer have an ulterior motive for doing so. Giving a direct answer usually results in a personal attack.
I do my best to stay focused on what is or is not found in the word in an attempt to avoid stifling a productive discussion. As unfortunately people have biases that bring conversation to a screeching halt. And as I'm sure you know, hindering the word from going forth is a tactic of the enemy. For when God's word goes forth it will not return void; it brings forth life.
"For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isa 55:10-11
However, since I don't want to be labeled rude, here goes. I'll see if my past experience holds true:
You asked, "Is it your contention that anyone who has never spoken in tongues is not saved?"
So there is no confusion by others reading my comment. First, I will reiterate what I shared from scripture. No one can be saved without being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. (Rom. 8:9) And tongues was the sign that the indwelling had taken place in regards to all individuals. The same experience is detailed in 3 separate conversion accounts. (Acts 2:4, 33, 10:44-45, 19:5) And is alluded to in this Thread.
In addition, I was given insight, earlier today, concerning the topic. In Luke 11:13, Jesus said to ask for the Holy Spirit if you have not received the gift. God's provision of a sign allows a person to know without a doubt whether or not they have received the Holy Spirit.
I am aware of no other sign that proves the experience. And therefore since I believe the word of God, my answer is, Yes.
I do my best to stay focused on what is or is not found in the word in an attempt to avoid stifling a productive discussion. As unfortunately people have biases that bring conversation to a screeching halt. And as I'm sure you know, hindering the word from going forth is a tactic of the enemy. For when God's word goes forth it will not return void; it brings forth life.
"For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isa 55:10-11
However, since I don't want to be labeled rude, here goes. I'll see if my past experience holds true:
You asked, "Is it your contention that anyone who has never spoken in tongues is not saved?"
So there is no confusion by others reading my comment. First, I will reiterate what I shared from scripture. No one can be saved without being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. (Rom. 8:9) And tongues was the sign that the indwelling had taken place in regards to all individuals. The same experience is detailed in 3 separate conversion accounts. (Acts 2:4, 33, 10:44-45, 19:5) And is alluded to in this Thread.
In addition, I was given insight, earlier today, concerning the topic. In Luke 11:13, Jesus said to ask for the Holy Spirit if you have not received the gift. God's provision of a sign allows a person to know without a doubt whether or not they have received the Holy Spirit.
I am aware of no other sign that proves the experience. And therefore since I believe the word of God, my answer is, Yes.
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The gospel scriptures referenced reveal the Holy Spirit will come and mentions what He will teach. They do not give any detail concerning what will happen when He indwells a person. Speaking in tongues as the witness of the event was revealed in the Book of Acts immediately after Jesus shed forth the Spirit.
We can know we have the Holy Spirit by what we're learning and how the Holy Spirit is changing us. We can see it in the fruit of our lives. The Bible never talks about speaking in tongues as confirmation that we have the Holy Spirit. It is the FRUIT, not speaking in tongues.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
I know quite a lot of Christians that show off their speaking in tongues, but they aren't all that godly and obedient to the Lord and some of their teaching can be pretty off. That's why I don't go by that.
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I appreciate you taking the time to answer. And my comment about rudeness was just a statement of truth. You began a thread and someone asks for clarification and you become even more cryptic. That's rude. It's also unloving. We are to prefer others before ourselves. You didn't. But I didn't point it out to belittle you or because I was offended. If you are going to claim scripture, claim all of it. And surely you are aware, everyone has an agenda.
All that said, do you know a verse that says we have to have an outward manifestation of the Spirit for one to be indwelled by Him?
All that said, do you know a verse that says we have to have an outward manifestation of the Spirit for one to be indwelled by Him?
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[QUOTE="Cameron143, post: 5299286, member: 314370"...You began a thread and someone asks for clarification and you become even more cryptic. That's rude. ...[/QUOTE]There is nothing hidden or mysterious in the scripture I provided in answer to your question. It's pretty cut and dry, if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
The Bible reveals tongues is the sign that a person has received the Holy Spirit. And it states: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Rom 8:9-11
The Bible reveals tongues is the sign that a person has received the Holy Spirit. And it states: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Rom 8:9-11
Jesus revealed that believers would speak with new tongues. The people went forth and preached everywhere the Lord working with them, CONFIRMING THE WORD WITH THOSE SIGNS. (Mark 16:15-20) In addition, as provided, every detailed account of the initial receiving of the Holy Ghost confirms what Jesus said. If you have evidence from the word that proves otherwise please do share it.
Mark 16:15-20
"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and CONFIRMING THE WORD WITH SIGNS FOLLOWING. Amen."
Mark 16:15-20
"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and CONFIRMING THE WORD WITH SIGNS FOLLOWING. Amen."