Salvation is a Free Gift.

[rogerg]

I'm saying he is a son of perdition. Why say more?

Does this verse add anything? Physical death happens to everyone born - it is a part of it, so by Jesus saying "good were it for that man if he had never been born" seems to indicate that a judgement worse than a death related to end of life, was awaiting him.

[Mar 14:21 KJV] 21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

 

[PaulThomson]

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. John 6. Slo the son of perdition, "a devil" according to Jesus was drawn to him for salvation. Maybe you don't believe Jesus?

Your response is non-sewuitur. Whether Judas Isacriott was ultimately saved or not is irrelevant to whether He was drawn by the Father to Jesus. He came to Jesus, and only those drawn could come. Therefore He must have been drawn. Now, I predict, you are going to need to redefine "come" in a special esoteric way to rescue your precious doctrines, even if that means rejecting what scripture clearly says...

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Judas did have a devil enter him. Are you saying he could not repent? Are you saying those who have not died and have a devil can't be delivered? The Point is you can't say where Judas is Because the word of God doesn't say where he is, does it?

jesus said he is lost

 

[rogerg]

Your response is non-sewuitur. Whether Judas Isacriott was ultimately saved or not is irrelevant to whether He was drawn by the Father to Jesus. He came to Jesus, and only those drawn could come. Therefore He must have been drawn. Now, I predict, you are going to need to redefine "come" in a special esoteric way to rescue your precious doctrines, even if that means rejecting what scripture clearly says...

Only those to be saved are drawn to Christ by the Father. If he wasn't saved and based upon Mar 14:21 it doesn't seem that he was, he therefore couldn't have been drawn to Christ by the Father.

 

[gb9]

Only those to be saved are drawn to Christ by the Father. If he wasn't saved and based upon Mar 14:21 it doesn't seem that he was, he therefore couldn't have been drawn to Christ by the Father.

Jesus in John 6-

"did I not choose you. the Twelve? yet one of you is a devil".

 

[Magenta]

Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12.

1 John 5:11-13 + John 6:47 ~ This is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[Foghorn]

1 John 5:11-13 + John 6:47 ~ This is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

I’m glad you agree. 🙂

 

[PaulThomson]

Only those to be saved are drawn to Christ by the Father. If he wasn't saved and based upon Mar 14:21 it doesn't seem that he was, he therefore couldn't have been drawn to Christ by the Father.

Please, don't just make theological claims that you have no scripture to support. Where does scripture say only those to be saved are drawn. It doesn't say that anywhere.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Only those to be saved are drawn to Christ by the Father. If he wasn't saved and based upon Mar 14:21 it doesn't seem that he was, he therefore couldn't have been drawn to Christ by the Father.

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[rogerg]

Please, don't just make theological claims that you have no scripture to support. Where does scripture say only those to be saved are drawn. It doesn't say that anywhere.

I didn't. Here, let's see if you are able to connect the dots. Hint: see the " give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him" in Jhn 17:2, and that it relates to the "given me" and the "raise it up again on the last day" in Jhn 6:39, and the "draw him and I will raise him up at the last day" in Jhn 6:44? In Jhn 6:45, the "therefore" associates Jhn 6:45 to Jhn 6:44, such that only those whom God teaches, are those drawn by God to come to Jesus and are raised on the last day.
When you can comprehend those associations (if you can), you will then be able to see that only those to be saved will be those drawn to Christ and raised up. Even if Jhn 6:44 were the only verse to mention it, that verse, in itself, would still be sufficient to demonstrate that only those to be saved are drawn to Christ.
And don't lecture me as to what I can and cannot post. Your edicts mean nothing to me.

[Jhn 17:2 KJV] 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

[Jhn 6:39 KJV] 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

[Jhn 6:44,45 KJV] 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Here are some bonus verses to demonstrate that "raise up" pertains in the Bible to eternal life at the last day.

[Jhn 6:40 KJV] 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

[2Co 4:14 KJV] 14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present [us] with you.

[Jhn 6:54 KJV] 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Magenta]

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

John 12:31-32

 

[rogerg]

John 12:31-32

Are they? Are all men - all of them - drawn to Christ? You do know that to draw means to drag off, as-in force, right?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Nope. Only those given to Christ by God receive eternal life.

[Jhn 17:2 KJV] 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Verse 37 is about the Father giving to Christ like your verse 2.

It's funny these verses say same thing but you will disagree because it's worded that that shows what people must do. You're truly a worker of deception.

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

...will come to me/whoever comes to me.

How do people come to Christ without literally doing what the word "coming to" actually means?

That's participation on the persons part to come.

 

[Magenta]

Are they? Are all men - all of them - drawn to Christ? You do know that to draw means to drag off, as-in force, right?

Oh? My Bible says that God draws us with lovingkindness.

Titus 3:4-5

 

[rogerg]

Verse 37 is about the Father giving to Christ like your verse 2.

It's funny these verses say same thing but you will disagree because it's worded that that shows what people must do. You're truly a worker of deception.

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

...will come to me/whoever comes to me.

How do people come to Christ without literally doing what the word "coming to" actually means?

That's participation on the persons part to come.

They come to Jesus by the faith given to them by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, by which, they come to believe in Him. They don't literally do something to come to Him. When they are given faith, they have come to Him because it is His faith that is imputed to them. It is called becoming saved/born again.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Verse 17:2 explains what you don't see in verse 6:37 - that God gave power over all flesh to Jesus, but only those
of the "all flesh", which God specifically chose and gave to Jesus, will He give eternal life to. No participation on their part necessary, nor possible, nor mentioned. According to those verses, and many other like verses, God and Jesus did/does it all - He simply bestows it upon those whom He saves. So, I think that it is you who is the worker of deception in that you would impose upon those to be saved a task for them to become saved, when no such task exists. According to your "person's part to come" comment, you would have them try to perform a work to complete their salvation, yet the requirement you would impose upon them in order to be saved, comes from Satan, not God. That is why God has told us that we are saved completely by His grace and not by our works or deeds, no matter how seemingly trivial they may be.

 

[Magenta]

the requirement you would impose upon them in order to be saved, comes from Satan, not God.

In Deuteronomy 30:19 God said, I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before
you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

God wants people to choose life. That life is in His Son, Jesus Christ. Satan has people choose death.

 

[rogerg]

Oh? My Bible says that God draws us with lovingkindness.

It is with lovingkindness. To be given to over to Jesus to be saved is the ultimate eternal lovingkindness.

 

[rogerg]

In Deuteronomy 30:19 God said, I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before
you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

God wants people to choose life. That life is in His Son, Jesus Christ. Satan has people choose death.

Don't think so. If I recall correctly (and maybe I don't), I believe that God was speaking to Israel as a nation in the Old Testament, regarding their place with Him as an earthly nation, but not regarding a person's eternal salvation

 

[Magenta]

It is with lovingkindness. To be given to over to Jesus to be saved is the ultimate eternal lovingkindness.

Not dragged away with force as you said. Drawn with lovingkindness.

Were you forced?

forced
adjective
obtained or imposed by coercion

 

[Magenta]

Don't think so. If I recall correctly (and maybe I don't), I believe that God was speaking to Israel as a nation in the
Old Testament, regarding their place with Him as an earthly nation, but not regarding a person's eternal salvation

Do you think then, that Israel will be saved some other way than by grace through faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ?