There will be no Rapture!!!

[cv5]

List of Church Fathers who believe John's Revelation revealed NO Pre-Trib Rapture:

Ironically, all of the Apostle John's Disciples are in this list: They would have been taught first hand directly from John.

Clement of Rome, Polycarp, Ignatius, Papias, Aristides, Epistle to Diognetus, The Didache, An Ancient Homily, Epistle of Barnabas, and Shepherd of Hermas, Justin Martyr, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus of Antioch, Irenaeus, and Clement of Alexandria, Hippolytus, Tertullian, Cyprian, and Origen.



The Church Fathers believed that the Church would be on earth during the tribulation period. This is seen in the earliest writers and there is nothing in the other writers to contradict this. They speak of the persecution of the Church by the Antichrist and of the Church being on earth at the second advent of Christ. Two writers mention the translation of the Church but one, Irenaeus, does not tell when it will take place and the other, Origen, places it at the second advent of Christ.

Already debunked. By @TheDivineWatermark
Several times.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Oh, I see. I doubt I can teach you anything then.

I think the only thing that will teach him and the rest of the pre-tribbers is reality, when the antichrist appears and they're still here.

Since they haven't prepared themselves for the persecution and death after that, I wonder how they'll handle it.

It isn't going to be pretty.....


🍦

 

[Aaron56]

I think the only thing that will teach him and the rest of the pre-tribbers is reality, when the antichrist appears and they're still here.

Since they haven't prepared themselves for the persecution and death after that, I wonder how they'll handle it.

It isn't going to be pretty.....


🍦

Honestly, their worldview will implode. I’ll keep my account open here so they can reach out when they don’t know what to do.

 

[Prodigal]

List of Church Fathers who believe John's Revelation revealed NO Pre-Trib Rapture:

Ironically, all of the Apostle John's Disciples are in this list: They would have been taught first hand directly from John.

Clement of Rome, Polycarp, Ignatius, Papias, Aristides, Epistle to Diognetus, The Didache, An Ancient Homily, Epistle of Barnabas, and Shepherd of Hermas, Justin Martyr, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus of Antioch, Irenaeus, and Clement of Alexandria, Hippolytus, Tertullian, Cyprian, and Origen.



The Church Fathers believed that the Church would be on earth during the tribulation period. This is seen in the earliest writers and there is nothing in the other writers to contradict this. They speak of the persecution of the Church by the Antichrist and of the Church being on earth at the second advent of Christ. Two writers mention the translation of the Church but one, Irenaeus, does not tell when it will take place and the other, Origen, places it at the second advent of Christ.

You are completely correct of course, but do you really think you’re going to change anyones mind? Have you ever seen it happen? If so, more power to you. But I’m with Twain on this one, “Never wrestle with a pig, you’ll just get dirty, and the pig likes it”.

 

[Prodigal]

Reformers do present a Loving God.
Then they present predestination.
But predestination presents what all I have just described.

Should I be stoned for applying all idealism's together into a single thought?

29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Peter, speaking of the apostle Paul, said that his writing could be a little hard to understand, and he was correct. But the words above from his letter to the Romans could not possibly be more clear.

I’m no Calvinist, or a theologian (thank you Father), I’m just an idiot that loves Jesus. But the text, oh my. It’s pretty clear. I mean, oh man. Ok, it’s your turn, start explaining to us how it means something other than what it clearly says. This should be fascinating.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Already debunked. By @TheDivineWatermark
Several times.

Really?
He must have skipped all of this to claim his bold faced declaration then...

Hyppolytus
64. These things, then, being to come to pass, beloved, and the one week being divided into two parts, and the abomination of desolation being manifested then, and the two prophets and forerunners of the Lord having finished their course, and the whole world finally approaching the consummation, what remains but the coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ from heaven, for whom we have looked in hope? Who shall bring the conflagration and just judgment upon all who have refused to believe in Him. For the Lord says, And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draws near. And there shall not a hair of your head perish. For as the lightning comes out of the east, and shines even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Now the fall took place in paradise; for Adam fell there. And He says again, Then shall the Son of man send His angels, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds of heaven.

Gregory of Nazianzus
I shall await the voice of the archangel, the last trumpet, the transformation of heaven, the change of earth, the freedom of the elements, the renewal of the universe. Then shall I see Caesarius himself, no longer in exile, no longer being buried, no longer mourned, no longer pitied, but splendid, glorious, sublime.

Augustine
These words of the apostle most distinctly proclaim the future resurrection of the dead, when the Lord Christ shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

Chrysostom
If He is about to descend, on what account shall we be caught up? For the sake of honor. For when a king drives into a city, those who are in honor go out to meet him; but the condemned await the judge within. [...] Seest thou how great is the honor? and as He descends, we go forth to meet Him, and, what is more blessed than all, so we shall be with Him.

Jerome
The rapture corresponds with the defeat of the Antichrist and final judgment, it follows that it will not be secret. Jerome says the "world shall howl" and "its peoples shall tremble," which is obviously not indicative of secrecy.

Irenaeus
“There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.

Justin Martyr
He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils.

Didache (Supposedly written by the Apostles of Jesus)
The sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increaseth, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as the Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hand.
And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead.

Complete list of (33) Church Fathers promoting Mid to Post Tribulation Rapture:
Didache
Epistle of Barnabas
Clement of Rome
2 Clement
The Shepherd of Hermas
Ignatius of Antioch
Polycarp
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
Epistle to Diognetus
Fragments of Papias
Quadratus of Athens
Aristides
Justin Martyr
Claudius Apollinaris
Minucius Felix
Melito of Sardis
Hegesippus
Dionysius of Corinth
Athenagoras of Athens
Irenaeus of Lyons
Rhodon
Theophilus of Caesarea
Theophilus of Antioch
Maximus of Jerusalem
Polycrates of Ephesus
Pantaenus
Clement of Alexandria
Tertullian
Serapion of Antioch
Apollonius
Caius
Hippolytus of Rome
Origen

Complete list of (44) Church Reformers promoting Mid to Post Tribulation Rapture:
John Wycliffe
John Hus
Jerome of Prague
Savonarola
Peter Waldo
Wessel Harmenz Gansfort
Theodore Beza
Martin Bucer
Heinrich Bullinger
Johannes Hus
John Calvin
Andreas von Carlstadt
Wolfgang Fabricius Capito
Martin Chemnitz
Thomas Cranmer
William Farel
Matthias Flacius
Caspar Hedio
Justus Jonas
John Knox
Jan Laski
Martin Luther
Philipp Melanchthon
Johannes Oecolampadius
Peter Martyr
Aonio Paleario
Laurentius Petri
Olaus Petri
John Wycliffe
Jirí Tranovský
William Tyndale
Joachim Vadian
Pierre Viret
Primož Trubar
Huldrych Zwingli
John of Leiden
Thomas Müntzer
Kaspar Schwenkfeld
Sebastian Franck
Menno Simons
Hans Denck
Conrad Grebel
Balthasar Hubmaier
Felix Manz

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I think the only thing that will teach him and the rest of the pre-tribbers is reality, when the antichrist appears and they're still here.

Since they haven't prepared themselves for the persecution and death after that, I wonder how they'll handle it.
It isn't going to be pretty.....

My question to you is,

why are you seemingly equating "persecution" (and "martyrdom") with that of the time-period that the "antichrist" will exist on the earth doing all he is slated to do (i.e. during a very specific, future, limited time period leading up to Christ's Second Coming to the earth--aka the "7 year period")?; as though AT NO OTHER TIME will we (the Church which is His body) EVER experience persecution and even martyrdom... contrary to what Scripture itself tells us, here (for example):

2 Tim 3:12 -
Berean Literal Bible
And all also desiring to live piously in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

King James Bible
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

New King James Version
Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

NASB 1995
Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.


(That's "ALL"... and "AT ANY TIME"!)



2 Thess 1:4 (said of the Thessalonians, back in the first century... and the REASON Paul is addressing the particular "issue" [re: a false claim] in 2Th2:1-2) -

Berean Literal Bible
so as for us ourselves to boast in you in the churches of God about your endurance and faith in all your persecutions, and in the tribulations that you are bearing.

King James Bible
So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

New King James Version
so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

NASB 1995
therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.




"The Church which is His body" has been experiencing tribulations and persecutions and martyrdom (at times) SINCE ITS EXISTENCE IN THE FIRST CENTURY. We are not waiting for "the 7-yr period" IN ORDER TO [finally] EXPERIENCE IT! (as you seem to want to suggest is the case).




There is something wrong when believers are inclined not to recognize that AT ANY TIME THROUGHOUT Church history (and going forward) it is possible to experience "persecution" and even "martyrdom".

The "antichrist" doesn't have to exist on the earth (in his role... i.e. "IN HIS TIME" 2Th2:6--the specific, future, LIMITED time-period we commonly call "The Trib") for this to be experienced by any one of us (throughout church history and as long as we/"the Church which is His body" exists on the earth).





So the same question could be turned around and asked of those who are not "pre-tribbers"... are you prepared for the "persecution" and "martyrdom" that may come to your doorstep (AT ANY TIME) BEFORE "the antichrist" ever exists and does his stuff [/bf "the (7) Trib yrs"]? If you are not "prepared" for such, then may I ask why... IOW, Why are you "preparing" for such ONLY during "the specific, future, LIMITED time-period we call the 7-yr Trib (when the AC will be in existence doing all he is slated to do DURING those specific, LIMITED years) and not expecting any PRIOR TO that, i.e. AT ANY TIME?

And if you have, HOW have you "prepared"? (especially in view of the way it seems, by what you've written at top, that you aren't really EXPECTING any UNTIL the AC "appears" on the scene--in what we call the Tribulation period [7 yrs]). And how is it that you believe that those of us holding to a "pre-trib" view, HAVE NOT "prepared" for same?

Or, is it just that you think it is only necessary to "prepare" (re: "persecution" and/or "martyrdom") for the specific, future, LIMITED time-period [7 yrs] in which "the AC" will exist and do all his stuff ("IN HIS TIME"), but at no other time??

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

[Sorry that I had to cut out your post. i'm over the 10,000 character limit!]​

The Great Tribulation

Any persecution we go through now before the great tribulation will be considered a cake walk.

Jesus Himself said:

Matthew 24:15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

It is a special case that Jesus Himself greatly emphasized. So shouldn't we take note of it? Tribulation for Christians will be on a more massive scale. It won't just affect a few Christians here and there. It will affect ALL Christians and it will be severe.


The Great Apostasy

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

The great apostasy is one of the reasons why pre-trib teaching is so dangerous. It lulls its believers into a false sense of security that they will escape the great tribulation and therefore don't feel they have to build up their faith in Christ to endure to the end. So pre-tribbers should ask themselves, when all these persecution, loss of all things and possible death happen, will they be able to endure all that?


The Mark of the Beast

Another disaster that will tempt Christians to fall away is the mark of the beast. As we all know, receiving it will be the only way to buy and sell. To refuse to take the mark will be certain death. But have you ever thought of the implications of this?

Since you won't be able to buy or sell, you literally won't be able to get paid for any work you do, won't get paid for any good or services you've worked on. In turn, you won't be able to pay your bills or buy necessities like food and clothing.

I'm reading up on what Jews lost during WWII and first they were denied the use of public areas. Then they were forbidden to join clubs and associations. Then they were no longer allowed to own businesses or teach at universities, etc. Then they were thrown out of their own homes and pushed into ghettos. When the Nazis figured out what to do with the Jewish Question and came up with the Final Solution at the Wansee Conference, the Jews were systematically exterminated. All the while their businesses, wealth and possessions were ransacked and stolen from them.

If a Christian hasn't built up their faith to endure to the end, than they'll be tempted to take the mark of the beast. To take it would mean that we put more trust in the mark than in God. But what does the Bible say?

Luke 16:13 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”

And the book of Revelation is very clear what happens to people who take the mark. So taking the mark of the beast is part of the great apostasy.


Satan, The Dragon

Revelation 12:16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

The "those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus" are the ones who remain loyal to God and have not fallen away.


Revelation 13:7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

Most post-tribbers know we Christians will be targeted specifically by the antichrist and that we will be conquered by him. Many of us WILL die. God told us beforehand so that when we ARE conquered (persecuted, imprisoned, all we own taken from us, executed), we still trust God and know that He hasn't abandoned us.

Part of enduring to the end is trusting that what Jesus did on the cross really did take away the sting of death. Death for us Christians is now just a way to go home to God until the full number of martyrs are called in.


Preparing for the Great Tribulation

Preparing for this worst of times isn't about prepping, although God might instruct some to do that. It isn't the main focus though. The Bible mainly says to endure to the end. But how does one do that?

You pray to God to help you build up your faith. And what He'll do is start putting tribulations in your life so that you can put your faith into practice. There will be people who hate you even if they don't know you, or know very little about you that will try to hurt you . You'll find yourself not having the money you need for an emergency or having even loved ones betray you on some matters. And God will prompt you to apply trust in Him. God will keep that sort of spiritual training and exercise right up to the great tribulation. You WILL end up more faithful to Him so when more severe persecution comes, you won't fall away.

Building up your faith to endure to the end is also about how much you abide in Christ and how much you let the Holy Spirit work in you. The more you let Him work in you, the more godly and obedient you become on a more consistent level. This is most evident in a crisis and how you conduct yourself in it.

All this close abiding in Christ will also help you to be more in tune with God and you will be able to hear His clear and specific instructions more easily when you ask Him for help. Conscious, continual abiding in Christ in faith and trust to endure to the end will also help those Christians God will keep alive for Jesus' return at the 7th trumpet.


Conclusion

Pre-tribbers don't even think seriously about these things and what they would do when faced with severe persecution, loss of all their things and death. Proof of this is that there are Christians in other countries who are already going through these very things, but even THAT hasn't moved pre-tribbers especially in America, to do anything to build up their faith to endure. Hopefully this discussion will get them to consider otherwise. They will lose nothing by preparing, but will most likely lose everything if they don't.


🍦

 

[Nehemiah6]

Tribulation for Christians will be on a more massive scale. It won't just affect a few Christians here and there. It will affect ALL Christians and it will be severe.

There is a lot of misunderstanding about the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation. The Tribulation is NOT for Christians and the Church. All believers will be already gone in the Rapture. The Tribulation is for unbelieving Jews, while believing Jews will be delivered. And it is a unique period. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: [the Jews] and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people [the Jews] shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the Book [of Life]. (Dan 12:1).

 

[Evmur]

There is a lot of misunderstanding about the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation. The Tribulation is NOT for Christians and the Church. All believers will be already gone in the Rapture. The Tribulation is for unbelieving Jews, while believing Jews will be delivered. And it is a unique period. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: [the Jews] and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people [the Jews] shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the Book [of Life]. (Dan 12:1).

"Through great tribulation must we enter the Kingdom of God .... in the world you will have tribulation"

Everywhere in scripture tribulation comes from man, truly it is persecution, the confusion is mixing it up with the wrath that comes from God. We are agreed that we are saved from God's wrath.

But you say the Jews are saved from tribulation, Jeremiah says it is not the man [Israel] who must endure childbirth but the woman [the church] Jeremiah 31

Jesu's message to the church is "they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death." Matt:24

But yes we agree that we are saved from God's wrath. Glory to God.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

There is a lot of misunderstanding about the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation. The Tribulation is NOT for Christians and the Church. All believers will be already gone in the Rapture. The Tribulation is for unbelieving Jews, while believing Jews will be delivered. And it is a unique period. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: [the Jews] and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people [the Jews] shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the Book [of Life]. (Dan 12:1).

If people read the Bible as it is without any special interpretations or extrabiblical writings and just read it plainly, it really does say that Jesus will come for us AFTER the great tribulation and that we are to endure to the end. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

To be sure, God will resolve all the problems with Israel at this time, but He will be purifying His gentile believers too at the same time, so we won't be taken up until the 7th trumpet.

I also believe that this event is very near. I believe the antichrist is already alive and an adult and working his way up the political ladder. Technologies for the mark are being developed and refined and wars are being set up accordingly to the Bible whether the involved nations know it or not. The river Euphrates continues to dry up and is estimated to completely do so by 2040 and China has passed a law that families can now have THREE children instead of one - that will easily build their army to 200 million strong when they reach drafting age, along with any other Asian countries that may want to join them.

So it is best to prepare on the side of caution. Even if you hope and believe in pre-trib, preparing for post-trib will be beneficial. If not for the great tribulaton, it's also great for your relationship with God.


🦓

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Jesu's message to the church is "they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death." Matt:24

For starters... let's start with this verse ^ you've put.

Would you agree that:

--Matthew 24:9 (this verse you're pointing out) is PART OF what follows on from "the BEGINNING of birth pangs" Jesus just spoke of in vv.4-8 (and that these are PARALLEL to the future "SEALS" at the start of the Trib yrs); and...


--that those "beginning of birth pangs" (Matt24:4-8) are also that which Mark 13:5-8 spoke of; and...


--that Mark 13:9 therefore is PARALLEL with what your verse in Matthew 24:9 is saying; and...


--that Mark 13:9 says, "But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them"; and...


--that PARALLEL to that Mark 13:9 verse is what is ALSO expressed in Matthew 10:17-18, which likewise says... "But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles." [why does it say this?!?]; and...


--that the CONTEXT of Matthew 10:17-18 had just several verses earlier (in vv.5-6) expressed: "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."





Yet, you are saying that Jesus was saying TO "THE CHURCH WHICH IS HIS BODY" these instructions?? ("Jesus' message TO THE CHURCH..."--Really?)






[for the readers: re: "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

If people read the Bible as it is without any special interpretations or extrabiblical writings and just read it plainly, it really does say that Jesus will come for us AFTER the great tribulation and that we are to endure to the end. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

CONSIDER:

--Matthew 24:29-31 (the CONTEXT of the verses you are referencing ^ ) is PARALLEL TO the passage in...

--Isaiah 27:9, 12-13 (see WHO, and TO WHERE they are gathered, and IN WHAT MANNER they are gathered, etc)...




[note that the Isa (27:9 "who") passage CORRESPONDS ALSO with both the wording in Rom11:27 and Dan9:24[parts]...(Dan9:24 being a TIME-PROPHECY pertaining to "THY [Daniel's] people" and "THY [Daniel's] holy city" specifically!)]




It's as simple as "comparing Scripture with Scripture" = )

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

To be sure, God will resolve all the problems with Israel at this time, but He will be purifying His gentile believers too at the same time, so we won't be taken up until the 7th trumpet.

So... what you're saying is... too bad for Aunt Phyllis who happened to DIE five years ago (i.e. at least FIVE YEARS BEFORE she could possibly "be PURIFIED" by means of the [future] 7-year Tribulation Period)... sorry 'bout your luck, Aunt Phyllis! Too bad, so sad... but oh well!




(do you not see the flawed logic of this reasoning?)

 

[cv5]

Really?
He must have skipped all of this to claim his bold faced declaration then...

Hyppolytus
64. These things, then, being to come to pass, beloved, and the one week being divided into two parts, and the abomination of desolation being manifested then, and the two prophets and forerunners of the Lord having finished their course, and the whole world finally approaching the consummation, what remains but the coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ from heaven, for whom we have looked in hope? Who shall bring the conflagration and just judgment upon all who have refused to believe in Him. For the Lord says, And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draws near. And there shall not a hair of your head perish. For as the lightning comes out of the east, and shines even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Now the fall took place in paradise; for Adam fell there. And He says again, Then shall the Son of man send His angels, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds of heaven.

Gregory of Nazianzus
I shall await the voice of the archangel, the last trumpet, the transformation of heaven, the change of earth, the freedom of the elements, the renewal of the universe. Then shall I see Caesarius himself, no longer in exile, no longer being buried, no longer mourned, no longer pitied, but splendid, glorious, sublime.

Augustine
These words of the apostle most distinctly proclaim the future resurrection of the dead, when the Lord Christ shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

Chrysostom
If He is about to descend, on what account shall we be caught up? For the sake of honor. For when a king drives into a city, those who are in honor go out to meet him; but the condemned await the judge within. [...] Seest thou how great is the honor? and as He descends, we go forth to meet Him, and, what is more blessed than all, so we shall be with Him.

Jerome
The rapture corresponds with the defeat of the Antichrist and final judgment, it follows that it will not be secret. Jerome says the "world shall howl" and "its peoples shall tremble," which is obviously not indicative of secrecy.

Irenaeus
“There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.

Justin Martyr
He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils.

Didache (Supposedly written by the Apostles of Jesus)
The sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increaseth, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as the Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hand.
And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead.

Complete list of (33) Church Fathers promoting Mid to Post Tribulation Rapture:
Didache
Epistle of Barnabas
Clement of Rome
2 Clement
The Shepherd of Hermas
Ignatius of Antioch
Polycarp
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
Epistle to Diognetus
Fragments of Papias
Quadratus of Athens
Aristides
Justin Martyr
Claudius Apollinaris
Minucius Felix
Melito of Sardis
Hegesippus
Dionysius of Corinth
Athenagoras of Athens
Irenaeus of Lyons
Rhodon
Theophilus of Caesarea
Theophilus of Antioch
Maximus of Jerusalem
Polycrates of Ephesus
Pantaenus
Clement of Alexandria
Tertullian
Serapion of Antioch
Apollonius
Caius
Hippolytus of Rome
Origen

Complete list of (44) Church Reformers promoting Mid to Post Tribulation Rapture:
John Wycliffe
John Hus
Jerome of Prague
Savonarola
Peter Waldo
Wessel Harmenz Gansfort
Theodore Beza
Martin Bucer
Heinrich Bullinger
Johannes Hus
John Calvin
Andreas von Carlstadt
Wolfgang Fabricius Capito
Martin Chemnitz
Thomas Cranmer
William Farel
Matthias Flacius
Caspar Hedio
Justus Jonas
John Knox
Jan Laski
Martin Luther
Philipp Melanchthon
Johannes Oecolampadius
Peter Martyr
Aonio Paleario
Laurentius Petri
Olaus Petri
John Wycliffe
Jirí Tranovský
William Tyndale
Joachim Vadian
Pierre Viret
Primož Trubar
Huldrych Zwingli
John of Leiden
Thomas Müntzer
Kaspar Schwenkfeld
Sebastian Franck
Menno Simons
Hans Denck
Conrad Grebel
Balthasar Hubmaier
Felix Manz

I see no post-trib Church rapture material in any of that content. Tribulation saints DO go thru the trib though.

 

[Evmur]

For starters... let's start with this verse ^ you've put.

Would you agree that:

--Matthew 24:9 (this verse you're pointing out) is PART OF what follows on from "the BEGINNING of birth pangs" Jesus just spoke of in vv.4-8 (and that these are PARALLEL to the future "SEALS" at the start of the Trib yrs); and...


--that those "beginning of birth pangs" (Matt24:4-8) are also that which Mark 13:5-8 spoke of; and...


--that Mark 13:9 therefore is PARALLEL with what your verse in Matthew 24:9 is saying; and...


--that Mark 13:9 says, "But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them"; and...


--that PARALLEL to that Mark 13:9 verse is what is ALSO expressed in Matthew 10:17-18, which likewise says... "But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles." [why does it say this?!?]; and...


--that the CONTEXT of Matthew 10:17-18 had just several verses earlier (in vv.5-6) expressed: "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."





Yet, you are saying that Jesus was saying TO "THE CHURCH WHICH IS HIS BODY" these instructions?? ("Jesus' message TO THE CHURCH..."--Really?)






[for the readers: re: "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]

When our Lord spoke to the crowds generally He was [imo] speaking to the Jews, when He spoke specifically, as on this occasion, to His disciples, He was speaking to the church and since He was speaking about the end-times His message can be said to apply to His disciples in the end-times.

In your Mark quote and the earlier Matthew quote you specifically say they were being persecuted "for My sake ... and for My name's sake" and as you say the persecution is both in Israel and among the Gentiles. So it is the church.

I do not agree with you that these corresponds with Revelations 6. The church is gone with the command "come up here" [imv] and the seals are the commencement not of the tribulation [persecution] but of the wrath of God.

 

[Evmur]

So... what you're saying is... too bad for Aunt Phyllis who happened to DIE five years ago (i.e. at least FIVE YEARS BEFORE she could possibly "be PURIFIED" by means of the [future] 7-year Tribulation Period)... sorry 'bout your luck, Aunt Phyllis! Too bad, so sad... but oh well!




(do you not see the flawed logic of this reasoning?)

Dear Aunt Phyllis made her robes white by washing them in the blood of the Lamb, i.e through HIS suffering.

 

[Musicmaster]

That's what's amazing about Revelation 1, where it's stated that they are ALL without excuse.

MM

Oops. I meant to say ROMANS 1, not Revelation 1.

 

[Musicmaster]

Look at those 7 churches. We know for a fact these were set up by the Apostle Paul. And like many of the Churches he set up (Corinth and Others) they stumbled and had many issues and Paul had to correct them. Paul was dead in 95 A.D. John was alive. And we have written account from John's Disciples (Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Clement, Papias, Quadratus, ect..) that John became Bishop of these Churches and his Disciples became Pastors over them.

So remove that John was charged to handle these Churches and it leaves that NO Church is mentioned in Revelation.

I don't see anywhere in the Church Fathers writing these 7 Churches represented the Church any more differently than the Churches Paul set-up in Corinth, in Rome, in Thessalonica, in Galatia, and the many others.

Well, two have nothing good said about them, and two had nothing bad said about them. Collectively, however, they do have parallels to the Church as a whole down through the ages. Sardis is even told that they will enter the tribulation if they don't shape up.

I like watching the documentaries of those seven churches which were in what is now Turkey. The scholars who studied those various regions of the Roman empire of those days have revealed much about the cultural and economic differences, as well as the measure of paganism variances in each city where those seven churches resided.

Interesting stuff indeed.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

List of Church Fathers who believe John's Revelation revealed NO Pre-Trib Rapture:

Ironically, all of the Apostle John's Disciples are in this list: They would have been taught first hand directly from John.

Clement of Rome, Polycarp, Ignatius, Papias, Aristides, Epistle to Diognetus, The Didache, An Ancient Homily, Epistle of Barnabas, and Shepherd of Hermas, Justin Martyr, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus of Antioch, Irenaeus, and Clement of Alexandria, Hippolytus, Tertullian, Cyprian, and Origen.



The Church Fathers believed that the Church would be on earth during the tribulation period. This is seen in the earliest writers and there is nothing in the other writers to contradict this. They speak of the persecution of the Church by the Antichrist and of the Church being on earth at the second advent of Christ. Two writers mention the translation of the Church but one, Irenaeus, does not tell when it will take place and the other, Origen, places it at the second advent of Christ.

Um, if I may: That's the fallacy of an appeal to consensus. What that means is that it plays on the idea that the majority can't possibly be wrong, and I would hope that you and I both know that such an assumption can be very, very wrong.

This idea that's so popular among some that those who lived closer to the first century HAD to be more correct in their views, even if they conflicted with written scripture. That's a ploy by the Roman Catholic religion that its followers have long since fallen headlong.

So, where the Nicene and Ante Nicene fathers fall into all that, they were not infallible in that they absolute reflected the beliefs of first century believers and the apostles on every point of doctrine.

MM