The 'ELECT' vs 'Free-Choice'

[BeeBlessed]

so paul did not have a choice when God took his sight and knocked him down?

Hi @Everlasting-Grace Thank you for a good question.

Saul’s will was to prevent the spreading of the gospel by persecuting those determined to spread it. AFTER being stopped in His tracks by a blinding light and hearing the very voice of Jesus Christ (not an experience Saul chose for himself), and after learning of God’s purpose for him, and after being given a new name, Paul chose to obey, just as we must do today. Paul was most definitely chosen (elect) for a specific purpose to help build the church.; he certainly had no desire to further the cause of Christ as he began his journey that day. I think it’s best to read what Paul had to say about his own conversion and what the Lord had to say to him that day:

Acts 26:12-23 (New King James Version)
“While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

So I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’

And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand on your feet; for
I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. For these reasons the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me. Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come—that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Impossible.
A follower of God is a Slave to God (by definition) because you deny your own will to do God's Will.

So NO ONE would ever choose that by themselves until they understand who God is by Belief.

Sounds familiar, to what I said. 😊

But is it not the case once you believe you then become enabled

Not believe then choose to

Is it
Not that Jesus put his resurrected life back into existing life as in give you a new spirit to your existing spirit and to his existing in life in you.

As in new life to his existing life that is already in you.

What was the point of Jesus resurrecting his own life ?

Is it not obvious his own life that exists in everyone needs his resurrected life to.

Do you see that.

So when we look at the prophecy that I will put my spirit in you, and give you a new heart is that not what it prophecies

 

[selahsays]

Hi @Everlasting-Grace Thank you for a good question.

Saul’s will was to prevent the spreading of the gospel by persecuting those determined to spread it. AFTER being stopped in His tracks by a blinding light and hearing the very voice of Jesus Christ (not an experience Saul chose for himself), and after learning of God’s purpose for him, and after being given a new name, Paul chose to obey, just as we must do today. Paul was most definitely chosen (elect) for a specific purpose to help build the church.; he certainly had no desire to further the cause of Christ as he began his journey that day. I think it’s best to read what Paul had to say about his own conversion and what the Lord had to say to him that day:

Acts 26:12-23 (New King James Version)
“While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

So I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’

And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand on your feet; for
I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. For these reasons the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me. Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come—that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”

I agree. Paul did not have a choice.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I agree. Paul did not have a choice.

The same character of God can be found in many places, theres a good reason for it 😊

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Sounds familiar, to what I said. 😊

But is it not the case once you believe you then become enabled

Not believe then choose to

Is it
Not that Jesus put his resurrected life back into existing life as in give you a new spirit to your existing spirit and to his existing in life in you.

As in new life to his existing life that is already in you.

What was the point of Jesus resurrecting his own life ?

Is it not obvious his own life that exists in everyone needs his resurrected life to.

Do you see that.

So when we look at the prophecy that I will put my spirit in you, and give you a new heart is that not what it prophecies

I am just saying look at society. Over 50% of marriages end in divorce because one side of the partnership is too demanding. If humans can't stay married because the woman must abide by the man's leadership, no way are they going to say to GOD " OK be my Ruler and I am Your slave."

But when you hear the Gospel and learn about God...then you say OK I accept that.

 

[selahsays]

why do we come to the lord though?

Election is just a term God used to denote those who would be saved.. or be "conformed to his image"

We come to the Lord because:
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

- John 6:44-45

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

We come to the Lord because:
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

- John 6:44-45

Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

Not good for those who have heard and not learned...

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I am just saying look at society. Over 50% of marriages end in divorce because one side of the partnership is too demanding. If humans can't stay married because the woman must abide by the man's leadership, no way are they going to say to GOD " OK be my Ruler and I am Your slave."

But when you hear the Gospel and learn about God...then you say OK I accept that.

Yes I understand where your at, you feal it's important to have a choice like everyone does yes 🙂

It's also important that we see God as letting us have freedom.

But at what point should that freedom be about surrendering to the wrong choice.

For you being his child to him it's about him not wanting you to surrender to sin or temptation, his war is against the reflection of his life, of what his life is capable of in men,

God and His life is capable of overcoming the reflection of his light, and can withstand all knowledge of his reflection of light.

But for Adam he was warned not to have such knowledge.

His light can shine in darkest places, and I with it.

But not alone can i and neither can I snatch you out of the fire alone.

But I am prepared to go down into any pit and snatch you out.

But I have to be given that choice that enabling. I then have to surrender to that choice.


I practice surrendering each day, by dying daily to the temptations of the world and the lusts of the flesh


How do I do that.

I do it by waiting on the lord in everything.

It gets easier to do the more you practice it.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Yes I understand where your at, you feal it's important to have a choice like everyone does yes 🙂

It's also important that we see God as letting us have freedom.

But at what point should that freedom be about surrendering to the wrong choice.

For you being his child to him it's about him not wanting you to surrender to sin or temptation, his war is against the reflection of his life, of what his life is capable of in men,

God and His life is capable of overcoming the reflection of his light, and can withstand all knowledge of his reflection of light.

But for Adam he was warned not to have such knowledge.

His light can shine in darkest places, and I with it.

But not alone can i and neither can I snatch you out of the fire alone.

But I am prepared to go down into any pit and snatch you out.

But I have to be given that choice that enabling. I then have to surrender to that choice.


I practice surrendering each day, by dying daily to the temptations of the world and the lusts of the flesh


How do I do that.

I do it by waiting on the lord in everything.

It gets easier to do the more you practice it.

As a follower of God I am supposed to get up every day, crucify my flesh, and only do God's Will.

How many times do any of us actually do just that?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

We don't choose belief or unbelief. We simply believe something or we don't. Man in his natural estate doesn't believe. Man in a spiritual estate does.
Anyways, I already knew your beliefs on the subject. I was merely attempting to show you that choice is a product of belief.
Blessings.

Manis not in a spiritual state until they are born again, That does not happen until in faith they trust Christ and what he did on the cross.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

As a follower of God I am supposed to get up every day, crucify my flesh, and only do God's Will.

How many times do any of us actually do just that?

All day brother,.


I'm sure you know that.

I take the warning very seriously and I'm not about to drop my guard.

I can't drop it.and I won't.

I demand the guard i don't command it.

God has enabled me to demand his guard.

I can drop his guard for a single minute and I won't.

Guard duty is discipline friend. But once disciplined buddy it's an absolute blessing.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Hi @Everlasting-Grace Thank you for a good question.

Saul’s will was to prevent the spreading of the gospel by persecuting those determined to spread it. AFTER being stopped in His tracks by a blinding light and hearing the very voice of Jesus Christ (not an experience Saul chose for himself), and after learning of God’s purpose for him, and after being given a new name, Paul chose to obey, just as we must do today. Paul was most definitely chosen (elect) for a specific purpose to help build the church.; he certainly had no desire to further the cause of Christ as he began his journey that day. I think it’s best to read what Paul had to say about his own conversion and what the Lord had to say to him that day:

Acts 26:12-23 (New King James Version)
“While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

So I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’

And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand on your feet; for
I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. For these reasons the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me. Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come—that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”

Before he could do any of that. He had to entrust his eternity to Christ. The one he was attacking.

I agree, he was chosen for a reason and a purpose. But that is not what saved him.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I agree. Paul did not have a choice.

What?

lol.. Everyone has a choice.. Otherwise we are robots.. Even abraham had a choice. his choice was to believe God. And God made him a father of many nations..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

We come to the Lord because:
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

- John 6:44-45

Many are called few are chosen.

God came to jerusalem, he wanted to gather them as a mother hen gathers her chicks, but jerusalem was not willing.

You still have to chose to respond to the grace given.

 

[selahsays]

What?

lol.. Everyone has a choice.. Otherwise we are robots.. Even abraham had a choice. his choice was to believe God. And God made him a father of many nations..

Well actually, you’re right. He had made the right choice before the foundation of the world. ….but God had to remind him in this age.

 

[selahsays]

Many are called few are chosen.

God came to jerusalem, he wanted to gather them as a mother hen gathers her chicks, but jerusalem was not willing.

You still have to chose to respond to the grace given.

Right. Personally, methinks everyone has free will in this earth age because no one knows whether or not they’re chosen (of the Elect). Everyone must choose Jesus.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

What?

lol.. Everyone has a choice.. Otherwise we are robots.. Even abraham had a choice. his choice was to believe God. And God made him a father of many nations..

Yes God is the master of all his children.

And all his children are his.

The fact you call it being a robot is the reason you believe what you want

 

[selahsays]

Well actually, you’re right. He had made the right choice before the foundation of the world. ….but God had to remind him in this age.

I’m referring to the apostle Paul here.

 

[selahsays]

Paul (Saul) was a chosen vessel:

Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads." So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?" Then the Lord said to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank. Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord." So the Lord said to him, "Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. "And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight." Then Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. "And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name." But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. "For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name's sake."

- Acts 9:1-16

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Paul (Saul) was a chosen vessel:

Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads." So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?" Then the Lord said to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank. Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord." So the Lord said to him, "Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. "And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight." Then Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. "And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name." But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. "For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name's sake."

- Acts 9:1-16

I'm sure it applies to everyone 🙂

For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for his sake. It's in Philippians 1:29