The 'ELECT' vs 'Free-Choice'

[Cameron143]

The gospel doesn't call for a choice. It calls for its hearers to believe. Why? Because what we believe, we do. The word of God is necessary as belief comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. So choice is ultimately immaterial. All our choices are made according to what we believe.

 

[Niki7]

That's because he was already in a saved position with God.

Also the idea of "Total Depravity", is a bad term. No one is totally depraved. We are capable of doing somethings that would be considered good. However, we are spiritually depraved. Meaning, apart from God's Regenerative work in our life, we would never clearly discern Biblical Truth because our spirits are "dead in trespasses and sins" and our old nature is at enmity with God.

clearly, you will have to do better

the word 'saved' does not apply as he had the nerve to live pre-flood in the OT. perhaps applying the righteousness Abraham experienced would be a better application

I don't think or believe everyone is spiritually depraved. Noah wasn't or God would not have tapped him on the shoulder with a project He had in mind.

9This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. 10And Noah begot three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

11The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.

Noah walked with God....does not say that Noah was regenerated and walked with God as opposed to the rest of the world

it just doesn't.

apart from God's Regenerative work in our life, we would never clearly discern Biblical Truth because our spirits are "dead in trespasses and sins" and our old nature is at enmity with God

first, salvation comes through hearing....not some regenerative work that hits someone like a light bulb and suddenly they can make a choice to believe

the Bible plainly states faith comes through hearing

14How then can they call on the One in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”g

16But not all of them welcomed the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”h 17Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. Romans 10

If not everyone welcomed this 'hearing' it means they had a choice

and faith comes by hearing.

now I didn't write that, so no use to dicker about it. I read it, I believed it and acted on it at the age of 5

 

[awelight]

.talk about being picky 🙄

Well we are discussing God's Word, where every "dot" and "tittle" do matter.

 

[awelight]

clearly, you will have to do better

the word 'saved' does not apply as he had the nerve to live pre-flood in the OT. perhaps applying the righteousness Abraham experienced would be a better application

I don't think or believe everyone is spiritually depraved. Noah wasn't or God would not have tapped him on the shoulder with a project He had in mind.

9This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. 10And Noah begot three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

11The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.

Noah walked with God....does not say that Noah was regenerated and walked with God as opposed to the rest of the world

it just doesn't.



first, salvation comes through hearing....not some regenerative work that hits someone like a light bulb and suddenly they can make a choice to believe

the Bible plainly states faith comes through hearing

14How then can they call on the One in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”g

16But not all of them welcomed the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”h 17Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. Romans 10

If not everyone welcomed this 'hearing' it means they had a choice

and faith comes by hearing.

now I didn't write that, so no use to dicker about it. I read it, I believed it and acted on it at the age of 5

I have already answered most of that in my post to Magenta. You are free to read it there.

 

[Magenta]

You don’t understand, @Magenta. You would not come to the Lord if you were not elect.

That is not where the problem lies with my understanding. On the one hand you say, only some are elect
and others who are not elect can still choose to believe, but then you say anyone who believes is elect.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

All I can say about that is: That makes no sense at all. Really, I am not trying to be ugly here but that makes no sense.

To begin with, the ones in Hell right now, were never in the Book of Life.

Because it don't align with your thinking is why.
But that plainly states those who take the Mark are NOT written.
That means everyone else is.
But we also know the path to God is narrow.
So those written had to be blotted out.

33 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.

 

[awelight]

clearly, you will have to do better

the word 'saved' does not apply as he had the nerve to live pre-flood in the OT. perhaps applying the righteousness Abraham experienced would be a better application

I don't think or believe everyone is spiritually depraved. Noah wasn't or God would not have tapped him on the shoulder with a project He had in mind.

9This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. 10And Noah begot three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

11The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.

Noah walked with God....does not say that Noah was regenerated and walked with God as opposed to the rest of the world

it just doesn't.



first, salvation comes through hearing....not some regenerative work that hits someone like a light bulb and suddenly they can make a choice to believe

the Bible plainly states faith comes through hearing

14How then can they call on the One in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”g

16But not all of them welcomed the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”h 17Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. Romans 10

If not everyone welcomed this 'hearing' it means they had a choice

and faith comes by hearing.

now I didn't write that, so no use to dicker about it. I read it, I believed it and acted on it at the age of 5

But I did notice you don't seem to put much merit in the Regenerative work of God. To bad, I guess you don't put much stock in these verses either.

Mat_19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Tit_3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[awelight]

clearly, you will have to do better

the word 'saved' does not apply as he had the nerve to live pre-flood in the OT. perhaps applying the righteousness Abraham experienced would be a better application

I don't think or believe everyone is spiritually depraved. Noah wasn't or God would not have tapped him on the shoulder with a project He had in mind.

9This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. 10And Noah begot three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

11The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.

Noah walked with God....does not say that Noah was regenerated and walked with God as opposed to the rest of the world

it just doesn't.



first, salvation comes through hearing....not some regenerative work that hits someone like a light bulb and suddenly they can make a choice to believe

the Bible plainly states faith comes through hearing

14How then can they call on the One in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”g

16But not all of them welcomed the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”h 17Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. Romans 10

If not everyone welcomed this 'hearing' it means they had a choice

and faith comes by hearing.

now I didn't write that, so no use to dicker about it. I read it, I believed it and acted on it at the age of 5

Additionally, since we are on the subject of Noah. Did you not notice, that what Noah would do was chosen by God. The way of construction and the materials of the Ark were chosen by God. The time frame to build it in, was chosen by God. The animals that would enter the Ark were both chosen and called by God. The ones that would join Noah in the Ark of safety were chosen by God. Noah did not close the door of the Ark, God did.

How many of these examples does one need before they come to realize, it is all of God.

 

[awelight]

Okay boys and girls, I am out of popcorn and need a new drink. See yawl later.

 

[Cameron143]

Additionally, since we are on the subject of Noah. Did you not notice, that what Noah would do was chosen by God. The way of construction and the materials of the Ark were chosen by God. The time frame to build it in, was chosen by God. The animals that would enter the Ark were both chosen and called by God. The ones that would join Noah in the Ark of safety were chosen by God. Noah did not close the door of the Ark, God did.

How many of these examples does one need before they come to realize, it is all of God.

Noah also found grace in the sight of the LORD.

 

[Magenta]

You misunderstood my reply of hogwash. I was referring only to the part of one saving himself apart from election.

First, Regeneration is the same thing as being "Born from above" or "Being born anew". I shy away from the use of "Born Again" because some have a different understanding of that term. It simple terms: It is when the Hoy Spirit comes and secretly Regenerates an individual, who was previously "elected or chosen" by God before the foundation of the world. This same thing is under discussion in John 3.

Is this Regeneration, of the person tied to the circumcision of the heart? Yes. In the new birth, a person is given a new nature and the dead spirit within is jump started and lives again. This nature has a positive outlook upon the things of God and the enlivened spirit can discern God's Word. While this new nature is in it's infantile state, it will grow and be shaped by the Word of God. Hearing the Gospel message in it's effectual sense, leads one to Repentance and Belief in Christ Jesus.

Therefore, in the technical sense, Regeneration is not Salvation. It provides the needed changes in order for one to hear and see spiritual things. It in no way eliminates the need for the Regenerated person to come to Christ as their Lord and Savior

Through the process of ongoing Sanctification, the believer will continue to mature spiritually, throughout their life.

No need to apologize. Nothing wrong with questions. It's how we learn.

Thank you for explaining your understanding. I have another question regarding this, since a person regenerated still needs to come to faith, without which it is impossible to please God... if by chance they do not come to faith, either through some fault or failing of their own, or circumstances beyond their control (such as an untimely death which would preclude the said coming to faith, e.g.), do you believe they are sealed with promise of the Holy Spirit? Or does regeneration happen apart from that, and the sealing only happens upon a more full-fledged belief? According to Ephesians 1:13-14 (NIV - When you believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of His glory), this sealing takes place at the time of belief. Yet if a person is regenerated and made alive in Christ while we were yet sinners, which Scripture also attests to, being that we are not yet righteous before God due to lack of belief and/or faith, does this mean that people who have been made alive in Him can still suffer the second death?

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Well we are discussing God's Word, where every "dot" and "tittle" do matter.

funny i don't see where pronouns are mentioned in Gods word.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

All I can say about that is: That makes no sense at all. Really, I am not trying to be ugly here but that makes no sense.

To begin with, the ones in Hell right now, were never in the Book of Life.

that's your assumption

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

All I can say about that is: That makes no sense at all. Really, I am not trying to be ugly here but that makes no sense.

To begin with, the ones in Hell right now, were never in the Book of Life.

Exodus 32:31-33
Then Moses returned to the Lord, and said, “Alas, this people has committed a great sin, and they have made a god of gold for themselves. But now, if You will, forgive their sin—and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!” The Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book

This spells it out completely the names are in until blotted out

Psalm 69:27-28
Add iniquity to their iniquity,
And may they not come into Your righteousness.
May they be blotted out of the book of life
And may they not be recorded with the righteous.

Again all names are in untill blotted out

Again all life is in untill blotted out


And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

All life is in the book of life untill removed


And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

All life is in the book of life untill removed

Luke 10:20
Verse Concepts
Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.”

All names are in the book of life

Until blotted out





Daniel 12:1
Verse Concepts
“Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

All names that haven't been removed

Again it speaks about only the life that has been kept in the book of life which is all those who have given to his life




Philippians 4:3
Verse Concepts
Indeed, true companion, I ask you also to help these women who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel, together with Clement also and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

Again it speaks about those who haven't been removed .

Revelation 3:5
Verse Concepts
He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Again all names are.in the book of life untill removed

Revelation 21:27
Verse Concepts
and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.


Again only those names who have not been removed

Exodus 32:31-33
Then Moses returned to the Lord, and said, “Alas, this people has committed a great sin, and they have made a god of gold for themselves. But now, if You will, forgive their sin—and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!” The Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book


Again all names are in untill blotted out

Psalm 69:27-28
Add iniquity to their iniquity,
And may they not come into Your righteousness.
May they be blotted out of the book of life
And may they not be recorded with the righteous.

Again all life is in untill blotted out

Revelation 13:8
Verse Concepts
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Again all life is in until blotted out

Revelation 17:8
Verse Concepts
“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

Again all life is in until blotted out



Psalm 56:8
Verse Concepts
You have taken account of my wanderings;
Put my tears in Your bottle.
Are they not in Your book?


Again all names are in until blotted out

Psalm 139:16
Verse Concepts
Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.

Every life has been alloted an amount of time therefore all life.is.in until blotted out

Malachi 3:16
Verse Concepts
Then those who feared the Lord spoke to one another, and the Lord gave attention and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the Lord and who esteem His name.

All life is in until blotted out.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

The gospel doesn't call for a choice. It calls for its hearers to believe. Why? Because what we believe, we do. The word of God is necessary as belief comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. So choice is ultimately immaterial. All our choices are made according to what we believe.

welcome back cam 🙂

 

[BeeBlessed]

Well you're just trying to save face now. There's no distinction between elect and those saved by free choice.

Just curious…. Where did you ever see a post where Selah said there was a “distinction“ between the elect and those “saved by free choice”?

 

[Cameron143]

welcome back cam 🙂

I never left.

 

[BeeBlessed]

This doesn't show that Paull didn't have a choice. God chose Paul because Paul was willing, and God knew to the degree that Paul was willing to go for Him - enough to suffer very much for Him, even execution.

‘What??!? Paul was definitely NOT willing. He had an official letter in his pocket giving him permission to persecute and take Christians captive.

 

[BeeBlessed]

Yep. I’ve been saying this for the longest time.

Yes, you most definitely have, even down to the capital letters for IS.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I never left.

I know, it's quite possible the residents sent you of track tho 😋

There's some things you shouldn't try to understand 🙂

I know it's your good intension to want to understand and reason with understanding, to gain trust in people which can be a good approach,

But in doing so you can end up becoming what you associate with 🙂