Can the nonelect ever be born-again? (2 Kings 22:27) With the elect thou wilt be elect: and with the perverse thou wilt be perverted.

[maxamir]

I agree,

God chose who will be saved.

As he told us in John 3. they who look to the cross in faith will be born again (saved) and given Gods promise they ill never die
As he told us in John 6, Whoever sees and BELIEVES.

and not just here but all over the word (gen 15 Abraham as an example)

You see, as jesus said, whoever believes is not condemned, whoever believes is condemned already.

It is faith in God or rejection of God that determines how Gods grace (if) is applied to a person.

sorry but the reason any one believes is because God gives them grace to believe.

 

[maxamir]

You have created a false god in your mind because the God of theHoly Scripture does whatever he pleases, and whatever he pleases he does.

And he pleased to set aside his godliness, Come to earth as a man. Live a life free of sin in the filth of his own creation. so he could die for that creation. in order that anyone who believed would be born again.

It pleased God that he gave adam free will

It pleases him that he gives us all free will

It sadens him that many many he died for will not repent and come to him, And force him to cast them to outer darkness.

The Scriptures very plainly declare that God sent His Son to secure salvation for His people by dying for them and being raised from the dead so that they will be raised from their spiritual death to be given a new heart and spirit to be able to obey His just command given to all to repent and believe on Christ.

God is grieved at the extent of sin (Gen 6:5-6) but is also angry with the wicked He hates every day (Psa 5:5, 7:11) and Christ will come again in judgement upon those He hated before He created the world (Rom 9:11-13).

it seems that you do not yet know that all of God's attributes are based in His holiness.

Does God love these below?

2Th 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

 

[maxamir]

lol

For it is by GRACE we have been saved. Thats a fact. all those who are saved are saved BY GRACE

However. we need to complete the sentence. "BY FAITH"

God is not going to force you to receive his grace. His desire is for you to desire and freely receive his gift of eternal life.

But as many as have received him to THEM he gave the right or power to become Gods children.

You keep skipping the part that matters..

you have left out the fact that faith itself is a gift and people are saved through the instrument of faith and not by it.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

and those who received Him did not choose Him from their will.

Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Jas 1:18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

Psa 110:3a Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,

Psa 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You,

 

[maxamir]

This is true

But the word also said THEY chose to receive him in faith.. and that why they were chosen.

please learn what the word predestined means.

Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

[rogerg]

you have left out the fact that faith itself is a gift and people are saved through the instrument of faith and not by it.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

and those who received Him did not choose Him from their will.

Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Jas 1:18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

Psa 110:3a Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,

Psa 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You,

I definitely agree with you, maxamir, and would just hasten to add that the only faith that brings salvation to anyone is Christ's faith freely reckoned (imputed) by God unto those whom He saves- no one is saved from/by a self-produced faith (I know that you already know this but wanted to make the distinction clear for others).

[Rom 1:17 KJV] 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Do you believe it is necessary to believe correct/sound doctrine?

I believe there is one truth.

And I believe anyone who thinks they have the 100% truth are decieved.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

God said He hated Esau while he was still in the womb, so you don't think that a unborn baby is human. What are you on about man, make some sense and stop using childish puzzles

No he did not. where do you get this?

God spoke these words in malichi. Esau the person had been dead for centuries by this time

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You'll need to be more specific, I'm not sure what you didn't understand in my reply.

You caused Jesus to contradict himself.

so lets solve the apparant contradiction.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Yes everyone says what you say but nobody has been able to find any alternatives. So nothing changes,

No alternatives?

Why not listen to what a person is saying other than listening with a calvinist or arminian perspective?

How about setting aside the arminian vs calvin debate and just speak about the word?

There are many alternatives.

the issue has divided the Church for the past 500 years and the worlds greatest theologians have been fiercely debating each other. So if they can't find a consensus or the truth of the matter, then how are us garden variety novices supposed to.

Thats because they make it a calvin vs arminian debate.

Do you know how many calvinista or arminians are actually in this chatroom? I doubt there are very many, So why are we arguing about the two?

It all comes down to personal choice, we can choose one of the two sides and run with it and defend it to the grave.

Or we can do like MANY have done, and chose NEITHER of the two choices..

I personally reject both forms of theology.. So I think it is a shame when someone calls me a calvinist because I believe in eternal security, or someone calls me an arminian because I reject calvinism.

Everyone does what is right in his own eyes. They say the truth is the first casualty in every battle, so we must deal with the reality of the issue. We can't sit on the fence in a war.

I think you missed my point completely.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

That's OK, everyone claims to be a Child of God, but all 40,000 denominations oppose each other and accuse the others of teaching heresies. Welcome to denominationalism, hope you enjoy your stay. Please try to tolerate those who oppose you and accuse you of heresy

I do?

Did you hear what I said. I belong to the church of columbus,, That church consists of many denominations. I am not apposed to the other true churches..

There are not 40,000 denominations in columbus, again, you have bought into the roman catholic lie and reasoning.

You shoudl walk away from that thinking

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

She trust in her private interpretation and wisdom to discern the gospel message.

Same could be said of you my friend.

I just pointed out that there are thousands of conflicting interpretations of the gospel, and that one should not lean on their own understanding and wisdom as human reasoning always leads to a false doctrines.

So we should listen to men? Since when should we place our eternity in the hands of another person?

God told us to study to show ourselves approved, rightly dividing the word of truth

he also told us to test each spirit (truth)

The roman church does not want you to do this, because they would be exposed.. Sadly you have fallen into their trap

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

so you say that Christ did not die to secure salvation for anyone but instead died to potentially save all people based upon their choice and not His. Is that correct?

No,

He died so that WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM, will be born again.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It is not a hard thing to understand that God loves justice so much that He killed His only Son at the hands of evil men in order to secure salvation for His people and He justly kills about 180,000 people every day which is around two people every second because the soul that sins shall die and the wages of sin is death (Eze 18:4,20, Rom 6:23).

God loves those who love Him and they only do so because He first loved them (Pro 8:17, 1 Jn 4:19).

View attachment 262866

See there is where the issue is

God is an agape love person as well as a Justice person.

Both his love and justice are perfect.

One can not overrule another. thats why he had to come and die.

When you claim God does not love everyone the same. you claim he has no perfect love. hence you diminish God..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

sorry but the reason any one believes is because God gives them grace to believe.

View attachment 262867

You have a failure to listen,

Faith is not the CAUSE, It is the MEANS to which salvation is recieved.

For it is by GRACE WE HAVE BEEN SAVED.

Grace is the CAUSE.

But it is only done through faith

For it is BY GRACE WE HAVE BEEN SAVED THROUGH FAITH.

Faith is not the consequence of new birth, it is the means or highway by which it is received.

But as many as have RECEIVED HIM, to THEM he gave the right to become children of God

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The Scriptures very plainly declare that God sent His Son to secure salvation for His people by dying for them and being raised from the dead so that they will be raised from their spiritual death to be given a new heart and spirit to be able to obey His just command given to all to repent and believe on Christ.

He died for his creation.

God is grieved at the extent of sin (Gen 6:5-6) but is also angry with the wicked He hates every day (Psa 5:5, 7:11) and Christ will come again in judgement upon those He hated before He created the world (Rom 9:11-13).

There you go destroying romans 9 again.. smh

it seems that you do not yet know that all of God's attributes are based in His holiness.

I know all of Gods attributes
he is perfect holiness
He is perfect justice
He is perfect knowledge (omniscient)
He is everywhere (omnipresent)
He is perfect love (agape)

You claim he not only is not perfect in knowledge, he does not have perfect love either

Does God love these below?

2Th 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Yes, and why are they punished?

Because they did nto OBEY THE GOSPEL.

But according to you, they can;t obey the gospel. God prevents them from obeying

so God is the reason they will be judged. Not themselves.

You keep proving my point for me

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

you have left out the fact that faith itself is a gift and people are saved through the instrument of faith and not by it.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

and those who received Him did not choose Him from their will.

Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Jas 1:18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

Psa 110:3a Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,

Psa 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You,

And?

For by grace we have been saved THROUGH FAITH.

Yes faith is a gift. If God did nto die. all the faith in the world would not save you.

The gift is the cross.

Why do you hate God so much?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

please learn what the word predestined means.

Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Predestine means predetermine

Please learn what the word foreknowledge means

God predestined that those he foreknow would see and believe in him would be conformed to the image of his son.

The bible is a whole.. take it as a whole

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I definitely agree with you, maxamir, and would just hasten to add that the only faith that brings salvation to anyone is Christ's faith freely reckoned (imputed) by God unto those whom He saves- no one is saved from/by a self-produced faith (I know that you already know this but wanted to make the distinction clear for others).

[Rom 1:17 KJV] 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

No one comes to faith by himself.

Abraham CHOSE to believe God. God did not make abraham alive so he could believe.

 

[rogerg]

No one comes to faith by himself.

Abraham CHOSE to believe God. God did not make abraham alive so he could believe.

No, Abraham did not choose to his faith/belief was a gift given to him by God

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

 

[rogerg]

Abraham CHOSE to believe God. God did not make abraham alive so he could believe.

And the faith given to Abraham (and to all who become saved) is Christ's faith because only Christ's faith is righteous - a man's self-produced faith is not.