Predestination is misunderstood...

[maxamir]

And I have clearly explained man is not naturally depraved in his soul but his flesh is what is against the Spirit and when grace is applied to the flesh, man is free to reveal the true desires of his soul in regards to the truth for the Lord ensures man is free to decide to agree with God or disagree according to his own desire and not as he is enforced to by God's desires. If it were not so, there would be no battle between the flesh and the mind, not could there be any salvation for the soul would constantly be raging against God. The truth would have to literally imprison us to keep in step with God's will, not set us free.

the biblical fact that you fail to realise is that man is spiritually dead and enslaved to sin and Satan which is why Christ came to set His people free.

 

[maxamir]

You are free to think that way....
Aren't you?

only because Christ has set me free!

 

[PaulThomson]

I love being corrected but you have just proven that you believe the Arminian works based gospel. Where you and God work together to achieve salvation for you.

Your argument, contradicts what you claim, you claim that God offers you salvation and you can reject it or use your faith as a work and accept it. That means God meets you half way and you have to make the leap of faith and jump into the sea of Gallie and Jesus will catch you. So it's a joint effort salvation which relies on your faith and obedience.

So you can't say, you don't follow Arminius as that's exactly what he taught.

The biblical gospel says, "you can do nothing without me", but along comes Paul Thomson and says. Nah I don't believe you Jesus, watch me force you to save me by my faith and my obedience, so that's a purely works based salvation which makes the Lord a liar.

I never said "I can use my faith as a work". You are the one making faith into a work, an effort (Greek ergon), and contradicting scripture which clearly says faith is not a work. Please, stop lying about what people have and have not said. Please, report their words honestly.

 

[John146]

the biblical fact that you fail to realise is that man is spiritually dead and enslaved to sin and Satan which is why Christ came to set His people free.

View attachment 262864

These “about twelve” believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and did not have the Holy Spirit when they believed.

Acts 19
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.

 

[sawdust]

Well that's your personal take but my bible tells me the opposite, so with all due respect I must reject your view as being false and stick to what God said. Thank you.

Well, my Bible says, "believe on the Lord and you will be saved", so believing Him comes before being saved. Maybe you're dyslexic and don't know it.

 

[sawdust]

Your choice is to either believe what God said about Himself or deny it, the choice is yours.

That's not what the other Calvinists/Reformed here have been saying. They say you can't believe unless you're saved.

 

[sawdust]

Let's see how you twist these verses to support your Arminian doctrine. The verse clearly say Gods elect were chosen before the foundation of the world and you must accept that fact or deny Gods Word. There's no wiggle room here.

Ephesians 1:4-6

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

I'm not an Arminian and the verse says we were predestined to be holy and adopted as sons which, is what I said earlier. Not a single word about being destined to believe. God predestined believers. The doctrine only applies to believers ergo, it is not about God choosing who would believe and who would not otherwise predestination would be applied to everyone.

 

[sawdust]

why do you deserve to go to Heaven?

If you can't be bothered giving a simple direct answer, then please do not waste my time with your silliness.

Who said I deserved to go to heaven? That's your twisted logic at work.

I will go to heaven on the same basis as everyone else who goes to heaven, by grace through faith.

I have said this repeatedly.

 

[sawdust]

anyone who says that they contributed to their salvation by cooperating with God and says they have assurance by anything they have done does not yet know grace.

Unfortunately that is always your interpretation. @reneweddaybyday is correct when they say no-one has claimed we are saved by our choice.

 

[brightfame52]

God has brought about (by grace) the ability to change.

By suppressing their flesh (by the power of grace) their soul will be made free to decide what it wants to believe.

Just the same. Even when God places them under His drawing grace, they can still choose freely to be against God.
That is why they will be held accountable.
For, if grace were not applied? And the soul had no choice but to reject God?
Then its not really their choice to be judged, but rather the result of Adam's choice!

Yes... we are born depraved. For Adam ate and passed down the sin nature to us all.

But, its only the flesh that is beyond hope. Not the soul who was born in a body making it a slave to the flesh.

​

The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. ​

The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. ​

Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God." Romans 8:6-8​

​

The mind is our soul!
Its the brain where the soul's thinking registers in the material world.

grace and peace ...................

Again:
Men by nature are unwilling and at enmity against God, will not and cant submit to God. So if a person becomes willing, then thats indicative God has changed them, saved them and given them a new heart.

 

[brightfame52]

How about you stop spamming and enter a real dialogue. Paul said he was willing to do good. He did not have a new heart as he ends by crying out for salvation. Try opening your mind to the truth of what is written instead of closing it off behind a wall of copy and paste.

Its not spamming, its the Truth,

Men by nature are unwilling and at enmity against God, will not and cant submit to God. So if a person becomes willing, then thats indicative God has changed them, saved them and given them a new heart

Jn 5 40 shows men naturally aren't will ing to come to Christ, and Rom 8:7-8 shows man naturally isnt able to submit to God and in fact is enmity against God in our minds. Nothing changes this but a new birth. Sorry

 

[John146]

Its not spamming, its the Truth,

Men by nature are unwilling and at enmity against God, will not and cant submit to God. So if a person becomes willing, then thats indicative God has changed them, saved them and given them a new heart

Jn 5 40 shows men naturally aren't will ing to come to Christ, and Rom 8:7-8 shows man naturally isnt able to submit to God and in fact is enmity against God in our minds. Nothing changes this but a new birth. Sorry

See post 6,084

 

[brightfame52]

See post 6,084

See this:
Men by nature are unwilling and at enmity against God, will not and cant submit to God. So if a person becomes willing, then thats indicative God has changed them, saved them and given them a new heart

Jn 5 40 shows men naturally aren't will ing to come to Christ, and Rom 8:7-8 shows man naturally isnt able to submit to God and in fact is enmity against God in our minds. Nothing changes this but a new birth.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I love being corrected but you have just proven that you believe the Arminian works based gospel. Where you and God work together to achieve salvation for you.

Your argument, contradicts what you claim, you claim that God offers you salvation and you can reject it or use your faith as a work and accept it. That means God meets you half way and you have to make the leap of faith and jump into the sea of Gallie and Jesus will catch you. So it's a joint effort salvation which relies on your faith and obedience.

So you can't say, you don't follow Arminius as that's exactly what he taught.

The biblical gospel says, "you can do nothing without me", but along comes Paul Thomson and says. Nah I don't believe you Jesus, watch me force you to save me by my faith and my obedience, so that's a purely works based salvation which makes the Lord a liar.

what's wrong with God meating you half way charlie

 

[John146]

See this:
Men by nature are unwilling and at enmity against God, will not and cant submit to God. So if a person becomes willing, then thats indicative God has changed them, saved them and given them a new heart

Jn 5 40 shows men naturally aren't will ing to come to Christ, and Rom 8:7-8 shows man naturally isnt able to submit to God and in fact is enmity against God in our minds. Nothing changes this but a new birth.

How? The Lord knew their hearts that they would not come to him. It does not say, "can't come to me."

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

 

[John146]

See this:
Men by nature are unwilling and at enmity against God, will not and cant submit to God. So if a person becomes willing, then thats indicative God has changed them, saved them and given them a new heart

Jn 5 40 shows men naturally aren't will ing to come to Christ, and Rom 8:7-8 shows man naturally isnt able to submit to God and in fact is enmity against God in our minds. Nothing changes this but a new birth.

Carnal minds are against God. And yet, those Corinthian believers were carnal. Why? Because they were babes in Christ and were living in a manner in which were stunting their growth.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[brightfame52]

How? The Lord knew their hearts that they would not come to him. It does not say, "can't come to me."

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Scripture says that in Jn 6:44, they are one and the same.

 

[brightfame52]

Carnal minds are against God. And yet, those Corinthian believers were carnal. Why? Because they were babes in Christ and were living in a manner in which were stunting their growth.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The Corinthian believers also had the Spirit. So they were regenerated. The unregenerate dont have the Spirit, so they are 100% carnal and in the flesh.

 

[John146]

Scripture says that in Jn 6:44, they are one and the same.

And yet...

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

[John146]

The Corinthian believers also had the Spirit. So they were regenerated. The unregenerate dont have the Spirit, so they are 100% carnal and in the flesh.

Do you not believe that one needs the Holy Spirit in order to believe?