Predestination is misunderstood...

[Genez]

No, it isn't. Prayer solves nothing when you are not thinking.

Prayer in itself is not to solve problems...

Its to lead you to what you need to think with to solve a problem....

Many pray for God to take a problem away.
Instead, God wants us to learn in our weaknesses to pray for what we need to know and think with to solve it....

The Lord told Paul (after Paul pleaded with the Lord to take away a problem he was tormented by)
that His grace power works effectively in our weaknesses. That the solution needs to be found through God's grace, not prayer.

Simply praying for God to remove a problem deprives us from growing in grace and truth...
Prayer is our spiritual GPS tool to lead us to where we will find what is needed for a given situation.

Been learning that principle from my pastor over the last week's class..

Prayer (in itself) is not to be used as the problem solver.
Prayer is simply a means to find what is needed for solving the problem...

Or? To give thanks...

...........

 

[PaulThomson]

When you purchased your two houses, you gave the down payment and more than likely you moved into at least one, if not both, of the houses at closing. When escrow closed and you moved in, did you not guarantee that full payment would be made at the end of the term?

My husband and I put a down payment on some property and moved in. When we sold the property, the existing loan was paid off in full. Then we put a down payment on another property, moved in, and I am still paying on that.

In Ephesians 1:13, we are told that at the time we believed the gospel of salvation, we were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance.

The Holy Spirit within the believer is the earnest ... the guarantee that the full inheritance will be forthcoming.

That;s not how it works in New Zealand. We have to put down a deposit when we agree to buy the property as it is on the day we agree to buy. And we have to raise the finance and hand over all the rest of the money on the date of settlement. Usually people don't have all the purchase value of the house and borrow the money from the bank, and pay off the bank gradually with interest. But if you can pay cash on settlement day, the house becomes yours. If you inspect the house before settlement and it's has been vandalised, or disappeared into a sink-hole or collapsed from termites since the downpayment was made, you can refuse to take possession and demand the deposit back.

We once put a deposit on some land (100 hectares with three dwellings and some farm buildings, but changed our mind about going through with the deal, and received our deposit back. It wasn't vandalised, but the owner was kind.

Once the requires down-payment id trand=sferred to the owner, they are obligated to not sell to anyone else, until the settle date. If on the settle date the buyer withholds or cannot raise the remaining funds, the house does not pass into the hands of the depositor.. Putting a deposit on a house does not guarantee to the seller that the depositor will ultimately take possession. It is a sign of a good faith offer to do so, provided noth sides keep their respective commitments concerning the property in the interim.

The Holy Spirit is given to us as God's expression of His genuine desire to accept us in out present condition. According to the deposit parable, if we become worse before the day of resurrection, than we were before receiving the Holy Spirit He is under no obligation to leave the Holy Spirit with us beyond the handover date and can refuse to include us in His millennial kingdom

 

[Genez]

I am still trying to determine whether you believe you are saved because of something you have done or something God has done.

I am still trying to determine why you keep trying to determine this with others.

Its like you are on a crusade.
We are saved, we who believed in Jesus Christ.

Please... give it a rest, and try learning the other 10, 000 doctrines we have yet to learn about.

 

[Genez]

That's an interesting claim. But should you not back up that kind of allegation by pointing to some actual evidence?

Not really.... I am wearing sandals and do not like rabbit holes.

I have been learning for many years from from skilled exegetical teachers, which is why I was able to reason with your conclusion concerning Genesis 3 (with Adam being denied the tree of Life). But, I am still not sure what you were saying is straight.

Just the same. I took what you said and walked it into a redemptive rationale..... while still not being sure that your exegesis is legit.

But, it was your rationale about how we are saved forever, but can lose it? That is what caused me to cut loose from the mooring.

I was in another forum years back where there was someone who had the skill to exegete.
Another person there also able to exegete who was capable and kept things sane.
I soon learned that having the gift does not guarantee integrity in what one thinks.....
That it can be used as a tool to distort and drag people off the road, even including the one exegeting....

If I personally had the gift to study exegetically? I would have dug a foxhole and dealt with you directly.
But of as now..... I wish to keep my distance until some of the things you claimed are verified.....
Some things you tell us just does not add up...

Enuf...

Wishing you well.

 

[PaulThomson]

View attachment 262787

Can you prove that claim? I don't think it is logical or true.

 

[PaulThomson]

John chapter 10 is about the PARABLE of the SHEEP:
What did Jesus say about the Jews and His PARABLES?

14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15 For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’

It fulfills Isaiah

9 And He said: 'Go, and tell this people: hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they, seeing with their eyes, and hearing with their ears, and understanding with their heart, return, and be healed.'

Paul explains it this way

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”


The Jews could not understand because what God did to them.
It had NOTHING to do with Jesus not dying for them because He did!

Actually, the Jews blocked their own ears and closed their own eyes in response to what God said to them via Isaiah. So God increased their self-imposed blindness by continuing to point out what they were already refusing to see. And God deepened their self-imposed deafness by continuing to tell them what they were already refusing to heed.

When I give someone hope, do I irresistibly grace them with hope? When I make someone angry, do I irresistibly impose anger on them. When I steel someone's resolve, do I force them to be resolute? Try thinking for yourself on this one and give me reasonable answers.

 

[Genez]

View attachment 262787

God in his omniscience took a mans free will through the paces of thousands of possible challenges to determine how he would always choose on an issue or matter.

If ten thousand challenges came up consistent?

Then God, " the Great Efficiency Expert," decreed just one or two opportunities to reveal how He knows that person would choose.
Not making him choose that way. But, making it evident how he will choose.... Choose freely.

Too much for you to grasp?

God sovereignly had me to say that at this time.

 

[PaulThomson]

Seems to me, the Holy Spirit "moved in" so to speak and He is the "earnest" ... the down payment which guarantees the full inheritance will be received at the time of the redemption of the purchased possession.

We are the purchased possession. God paid for us with His Own Son. The Lord Jesus Christ bought us and we are owned by Him.

The Holy Spirit is not the owner in this analogy who moves in to the house. He is the down-payment guaranteeing future ownership at and beyond the settlement date, the resurrection.

 

[Charlie_2024]

Of course you can con a con man, they are not immune to deceit, there is always someone smarter.

You know what I mean, you can't sell snake oil to a snake oil salesman. Or more to the point you can't change the spots on a leopard, as my friend was trying so hard to prove we can

 

[Charlie_2024]

no I don't know show me proof he wrote it

Common knowledge is not proof

Look at the TULIP table, then look at the Bible and you will find every single word in the table is Gods Word

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
That's an interesting claim. But should you not back up that kind of allegation by pointing to some actual evidence?

Not really....

OK.
'enuf ...

Have a grace day.

 

[Charlie_2024]

You really like that.
It suits your kind of flesh just fine..
Your flesh loves it..
It wants to use it for license to free expression to push around others in the name of righteousness.

Take your fantasy about yourself elsewhere.

Clobbering and telling someone they are wrong leaves them with nothing to think with.
Instead... you should be giving them the truth that they lack and leave it to God as for the outcome.

Unless you can teach what they lack in understanding? And, can only tell them they are wrong?

Put the whip down.

Its not a toy for little boys in a big body to make themselves feel like they are a big man for God.

Teach what is needed to be known first.
Then leave it to God for the outcome.

We don't need another jackass running wild in the forum.

thank you.

Grace and peace................

I know you don't like anyone shining the light of truth on yo or others, it's only human nature to hate the truth. Jesus said, they will hate you because they hated me first, so I'm honored and encouraged by the haters. It just proves to me that I'm walking in the light.

I don't hide the light under a bushel, I must speak the truth regardless of how awful the truth is. Otherwise I would be a hypocrite.
The vast majority of Churches are seeker friendly, that means they are willing to twist Gods Word to call evil good and good evil. So I'm well aware of the doctrine of Demons, that has taken over most of the Church.

 

[Genez]

I know you don't like anyone shining the light of truth on yo or others, it's only human nature to hate the truth. Jesus said, they will hate you because they hated me first, so I'm honored and encouraged by the haters. It just proves to me that I'm walking in the light.

I don't hide the light under a bushel, I must speak the truth regardless of how awful the truth is. Otherwise I would be a hypocrite.
The vast majority of Churches are seeker friendly, that means they are willing to twist Gods Word to call evil good and good evil. So I'm well aware of the doctrine of Demons, that has taken over most of the Church.

There you go....

 

[Charlie_2024]

Did you read 1 Corinthians chapters 1 through 3?

Here are a some verses from that section ...

1 Corinthians 1:11-13 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?


1 Corinthians 3:3-4 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

It is clear from those verses that some followed Paul ... some followed Apollos some followed Cephas ... and this caused division.

I am sure Paul, Apollos, and Cephas (Peter) taught the people to follow the Lord Jesus Christ.

maybe your Minister can explain the concept of following the Lord Jesus Christ to you. It is wholly apparent you'll listen to him.





the Greek word apostolos simply means a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders.

In Philippians, Paul indicated Epaphroditus was an apostle:

Philippians 2:25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger [Greek apostolos = aspotle], and he that ministered to my wants.
.

The problem still remains, which Lord Jesus Christ is the true one. We have thousands of different Jesus's to chose from. It all depends on what interpretation we apply to the name Jesus. Every denomination and religion has their own "Jesus".

There's no need to confuse what is already an incredibly difficult task of identifying the real Jesus Christ, without adding Greek translations which make it impossible. As all that does is muddy the water even more than it already is.

It's common knowledge that most people approach the bible with a preconceived idea of what they want it to say. Then they go about twisting the interpretation to build their own false doctrines.
The problem with the Bible is you can make it say whatever you want it to and if you're slick and smooth you can convince others to come on board.

So we have a smorgasbord of interpretations, to suit every agenda and movement. We have thousands of conflicting Christian denominations, each claiming to be the only true one and the rest are all pagan.

It's all very well to quote scriptures which ask believers to unite as one Church, but we know that's not the reality and it can never happen while everyone does what's right in his own eyes and ignores what the bible teaches. Those scriptures were not given to unite the Church, but they were given to condemn those who falsely professes faith in Christ.

 

[Charlie_2024]

There you go....

Should have mentioned, that I do aspire to become a full time Minister on a salary. So I'm aiming to sharpen my iron as much as possible to gain the necessary qualifications

 

[PaulThomson]

Look at the TULIP table, then look at the Bible and you will find every single word in the table is Gods Word

Yes but the are all under headings that they don't actually support when read in their context. Anyone can create a table of bible verse under headings. The question is, "Can they rationally justify placing those verse within those categories to prove the headings?" So far you have been unwilling to choose even one that you can mount a reasonable contextual argument for.

 

[PaulThomson]

God in his omniscience took a mans free will through the paces of thousands of possible challenges to determine how he would always choose on an issue or matter.

If ten thousand challenges came up consistent?

Then God, " the Great Efficiency Expert," decreed just one or two opportunities to reveal how He knows that person would choose.
Not making him choose that way. But, making it evident how he will choose.... Choose freely.

Too much for you to grasp?

God sovereignly had me to say that at this time.

You are superimposing a greek platonic concept of omnipotence onto Hebrew documents and drawing dubious chimeric conclusions from that process.

 

[PaulThomson]

You are superimposing a greek platonic concept of omnipotence onto Hebrew documents and drawing dubious chimeric conclusions from that process.

That should say "You are superimposing a greek platonic concept of timeless divine omniscience onto Hebrew documents and drawing dubious chimeric conclusions from that process."

 

[Genez]

You are superimposing a greek platonic concept of omnipotence onto Hebrew documents and drawing dubious chimeric conclusions from that process.

God knew you would freely choose to believe that....
And, in the manner you would choose to express it as well...

 

[reneweddaybyday]

you fail to realise because of a man centred Gospel most today believe it is their choice that saves them and have faith in their faith as the condition unto salvation rather than the faith that God grants as a gift of His grace to trust in Christ and His work alone.

The one who fails to realize because of a man centred gospel ... is the one who refuses to acknowledge that all who have posted in this thread agree that salvation is wholly of/by/from God. So you are still engaging in strawman fallacy.

Go back and read what was submitted in Post 5611.

Other than you, no one has objected to my statement ... which leads me to believe that all (or mostly all) who have posted in this thread are in agreement with what is submitted in Post 5611 ... i.e. that you are engaging in fallacy.

Definition of straw man fallacy:

The straw man fallacy involves creating a false argument and then refuting it. The counterargument is then believed to be true.​

https://www.logical-fallacy.com/articles/strawman/​

However, your statement that I (or anyone else who has posted in this thread) do not believe that it is God Who saves us or that I (or anyone else who has posted in this thread) believe it is [our] choice that saved us is a moot point because we all acknowledge openly and believe wholeheartedly that it is God Who saves us.

You are the only one arguing that "our choice saves us" ... so you need to quit raising these useless straw men that do nothing but feed your own ego.
.