The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[reneweddaybyday]

those Christ died for sin cannot and will not be imputed to them, or charged to them

it is clear from Scripture that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all mankind ... all descendants of Adam:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

so you are saying that "sin cannot and will not be imputed to them".

And here's a newsflash for you, brightfame52 ... it is righteousness that is imputed to the one who believes in God Who justifies.

In other words, before God justifies the one who believes, he or she is dead in trespasses and sins.

Rom 4:8

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Sin is not imputed or charged to any sinner

All descendants of Adam are as shown in Psalm 51

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

It is righteousness that is imputed to the one who believes:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

1 Jn 1:7

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

keep reading, brightfame52 ... and please note, these verses are speaking of those who are born again believers:

1 John 1:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

see what is written in these verses, brightfame52?

vs 8 – if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves.

vs 9 – if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness – again, speaking to those who are born again. If we sin after we are born again, we are to confess our sins to God and He is faithful and just to forgive us and He cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

vs 10 – if we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar.

Does your dogma align with these verses? If not, you need to let go of your error and cleave to the truth.

Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

keep reading, brightfame52 ... the whole chapter and into the next:

Hebrews 2:

1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

In Hebrews 1 we learn that the Lord Jesus Christ is so much better than the angels and in Hebrew 2 we learn that we need to give the more earnest heed and we are not to neglect so great salvation.

The Hebrews who neglected so great salvation were the ones who let them slip.

But the good news for them Christ died for is this, even though these sins may harass them, even overcome them, bring them into captivity, give us great pleasure in the flesh, deprive them of sweet fellowship and communion with God, nevertheless God does not charge them to their account, and God sees them still as perfectly righteous, holy and unblameable in His sight

the Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all descendants of Adam.

The ones to whom God imputes righteousness are the ones who believe. Once they believe, then they are considered "perfectly righteous, holy and unblameable in His sight".
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

All for whom Christ died, every single sinner He died for, their sins were imputed/charged to Him

it is clear from Scripture that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all mankind ... all descendants of Adam ... you know the verses.

Now everyone whose sins that were imputed to Christ for Him to die for, automatically become those Blessed Ones whom God will not impute sin unto Rom 4:8

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

ripping Romans 4:8 from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed it in order to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma is poor workmanship on your part, brightfame52.

2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Not one individual of this world can ever have sin charged or imputed to them, not by God !

The world referred to in 2 Cor 5:19:

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:​

​

5. the inhabitants of the world ... particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race ... John 1:10, 29 ... John 3:16f ... 2 Corinthians 5:19 ... 1 John 2:2​

What this means, no sinner Christ died for can have sin imputed to him or her by the Law, for sin is the Transgression of the Law1 Jn 3:4

conflating what is written in 2 Corinthians 5:19 with what is written in 1 John 3:4 reveals that you do not understand what is written in 2 Corinthians or in 1 John 3.

nor do you understand what is written in the verses you have conflated in your post 2479 ...

The fact that you jump from 1 Cor 15:3 to 1 Pet 2:24 to Rom 4:8 to 2 Cor 5:19 to 1 Jn 3:4 to Rom 5:13 to Rom 7:4 to Rom 5:19 in your futile attempt to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma indicates you have no regard for the Author of Scripture and you are completely ignorant of the truth laid out in Scripture.


2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Those for whom Christ died

it is clear from Scripture that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all mankind ... all descendants of Adam ... you know the verses.

Matt 7:23

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Let's see who the Lord Jesus Christ was referring to:

Matthew 7:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Interesting ...

The word that is the conjunction hina and it means:

denoting the purpose or the result, which means Gods designed result and purpose in Christ giving Himself for those He died for was to redeem them from ALL INIQUITY !

why don't you read the full context, brightfame52? ... you should include verses prior to verse 14:

Titus 2:

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

vs 11 – the grace of God brings salvation and has been revealed to all men ... all descendants of Adam

vs 12 – the grace of God teaches us that we should deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age

vs 13 – eagerly awaiting that blessed hope ... the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

vs 14 – Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify us unto Himself ... believers are a peculiar people, zealous of good works

vs 15 – teach these things, build up, rebuke with all authority ...


you really should learn to love context ... verses taken out of context do not relay the fullness of what God wants us to understand from His Word.

Neither can them Christ died for be of them which it is written of them this Ps 5:5

since the Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all descendants of Adam ... and some descendants of Adam reject the Lord Jesus Christ, Psalm 5:5 sure can refer to some the Lord Jesus Christ died for.

Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

I've gone through these verses with you already, brightfame52. And you once again reveal that you do not understand Scripture because you rip verses from context without any regard for what the Author of Scripture wants you to know.

You can deny the truth of Scripture all you want. Your denial of Scripture does not change the truth of Scripture into your stated claim.
.

 

[Chaps]

I think the two of you are talking past each other. Jesus died for the whole world as it is clear in the NT that Christ‘s blood is intended for all. Those who believe in him are saved (the Church). So it is fair to say that Jesus died for the Church and that Jesus died for the world.

This is why Paul refers to the Church as ”True Israel” as believing Jews and Gentiles are grafted into the believing remnant of Israel. So, those Israelites who failed to believe the Word of God were condemned (both in OT and NT) and those who believed in the Word were saved (both in OT and NT). It is simply that those who trust in Jesus as the messiah are those who become part of true Israel and take their place with the saints of old who also believed in what God spoke.

However, the fact of the matter is that God desires all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. So God DESIRES all men to believe, and thus be saved, but only those who believe end up saved. So, it is right to say both that Jesus died for the world AND that fruit of Christ’s work is only applied to those who believe God’s message (which is referred to as the Church in the NT). That is why you both can find Scriptures that validate your points.

The real issue here is whether God determines who can believe or if the invitation is open to all and God simply “foreknows” those who will believe. I take the latter position since Scripture clearly (in my mind) articulates that God wants everyone to come to faith. So, one can accurately say that Christ died only for the believing, but the idea that God never intended some to come to faith due to his divine predetermination I feel has no basis in Scripture. Yes, God knows the elect and Christ died for those elect. Yet those elect are determined by foreknowledge and not predetermination. Otherwise, it would be case that Jesus did not die for the world, which the Scriptures clearly refute.

It would be like me saying that I want to give 100 dollars to every person in the world, but stipulation is that I will only give it to those who ask. In this case, it. would be both true that I want to give that gift to every person in the world and that I only give it to those sho ask. While one could argue that my gift only belongs to asking individuals, that does not negate the fact that I wanted to give it to everyone. To suggest that my offer was never really intended for some because I would not allow them to ask for the money would be a contradiction of my claim that I wanted to give it to the whole world.

In sum, did Jesus die only for the believing? Yes. His gift is not granted to the unbelieving. Did Jesus also die for the world? Yes. His gift was/is offered to all. So, at this point, I think it would be more beneficial if you both did not argue these questions as both of you will find “yes” answers in the Bible. Rather, you should examine the idea as to whether God’s sovereignty means that God predetermines if a person can believe.

 

[brightfame52]

it is clear from Scripture that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all mankind ... all descendants of Adam:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

so you are saying that "sin cannot and will not be imputed to them".

And here's a newsflash for you, brightfame52 ... it is righteousness that is imputed to the one who believes in God Who justifies.

In other words, before God justifies the one who believes, he or she is dead in trespasses and sins.





All descendants of Adam are as shown in Psalm 51

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

It is righteousness that is imputed to the one who believes:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ





keep reading, brightfame52 ... and please note, these verses are speaking of those who are born again believers:

1 John 1:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

see what is written in these verses, brightfame52?

vs 8 – if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves.

vs 9 – if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness – again, speaking to those who are born again. If we sin after we are born again, we are to confess our sins to God and He is faithful and just to forgive us and He cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

vs 10 – if we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar.

Does your dogma align with these verses? If not, you need to let go of your error and cleave to the truth.





keep reading, brightfame52 ... the whole chapter and into the next:

Hebrews 2:

1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

In Hebrews 1 we learn that the Lord Jesus Christ is so much better than the angels and in Hebrew 2 we learn that we need to give the more earnest heed and we are not to neglect so great salvation.

The Hebrews who neglected so great salvation were the ones who let them slip.





the Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all descendants of Adam.

The ones to whom God imputes righteousness are the ones who believe. Once they believe, then they are considered "perfectly righteous, holy and unblameable in His sight".
.

Those Christ died for sin cannot and will not be imputed to them, or charged to them 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Thats the witness of the Gospel

 

[brightfame52]

it is clear from Scripture that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all mankind ... all descendants of Adam ... you know the verses.





Let's see who the Lord Jesus Christ was referring to:

Matthew 7:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Interesting ...





why don't you read the full context, brightfame52? ... you should include verses prior to verse 14:

Titus 2:

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

vs 11 – the grace of God brings salvation and has been revealed to all men ... all descendants of Adam

vs 12 – the grace of God teaches us that we should deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age

vs 13 – eagerly awaiting that blessed hope ... the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

vs 14 – Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify us unto Himself ... believers are a peculiar people, zealous of good works

vs 15 – teach these things, build up, rebuke with all authority ...


you really should learn to love context ... verses taken out of context do not relay the fullness of what God wants us to understand from His Word.





since the Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all descendants of Adam ... and some descendants of Adam reject the Lord Jesus Christ, Psalm 5:5 sure can refer to some the Lord Jesus Christ died for.





I've gone through these verses with you already, brightfame52. And you once again reveal that you do not understand Scripture because you rip verses from context without any regard for what the Author of Scripture wants you to know.

You can deny the truth of Scripture all you want. Your denial of Scripture does not change the truth of Scripture into your stated claim.
.

The ones Christ died for dont have sins, iniquity charged to them 2 Cor 5 19 so they have no punishment for sin due unto them

 

[reneweddaybyday]

you both can find Scriptures that validate your points.

please provide Scripture which indicates:

The ones Christ died for dont have sins, iniquity charged to them

​

My bible tells me that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all descendants of Adam ... therefore, brightfame52 advocates universalism on the one hand.

on the other hand, brightfame52 also claims that the "elect" are justified before they come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ [bold mine] ...

He Justifieth the repentant, or the believer, though those believing certainly have been Justified, but they were Justified by grace, before believing and while ungodly or while being enemies [by nature] Just as they were reconciled to God, while being enemies, that is ungodly

​

That statement is not true.

All descendants of Adam are born dead in trespasses and sins ... when a person hears the gospel and believes the gospel, then he or she is born again ... then he or she is sealed with the Holy Spirit ... at that point, the person is justified and no longer ungodly ... reconciled and no longer enemies ... this change in the natural man does not take place before a person believes as brightfame52 insists.

and those are just a couple of examples ... the pages of this thread are filled with much, much more erroneous dogma from brightfame52.

did Jesus die only for the believing? Yes.

According to Scripture, this answer is incorrect.

If you said "did Jesus die for the believing?" and answered "Yes" ... that answer would be correct.

But the truth of the matter is that Jesus did not die "only" for the believing. The Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all descendants of Adam ... and out of all descendants of Adam, only those who believe will be justified.

Did Jesus also die for the world? Yes.

According to Scripture, this answer is correct.

you may think it's a waste of time to go through the minutiae of brightfame52's erroneous dogma. Showing him that he is in error may help him (if he would allow God's Word to reach his heart where God can bring increase) ... and may help others so they do not fall prey to his error.


2 Timothy 4:2-5 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
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[Chaps]

please provide Scripture which indicates:

My bible tells me that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all descendants of Adam ... therefore, brightfame52 advocates universalism on the one hand.

on the other hand, brightfame52 also claims that the "elect" are justified before they come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ [bold mine] ...


That statement is not true.

I agree that the above statement is not true.

According to Scripture, this answer is incorrect.

If you said "did Jesus die for the believing?" and answered "Yes" ... that answer would be correct.

But the truth of the matter is that Jesus did not die "only" for the believing. The Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all descendants of Adam ... and out of all descendants of Adam, only those who believe will be justified.

I dont think you are following me at this point. I did say Jesus died for the whole world as you quoted in the end. However, Scripture does indicate that Jesus death only APPLIES to the believing. I am not a universalist. So, the Scriptures being quoted that say Jesus died for the elect is right. Like I said, Jesus died for the world, but only the believing receive the forgiveness God has provided. So, in that sense, the unbelieving are not ”the elect.”

 

[brightfame52]

It redeemed us from all Iniquity !2

Titus 2:14

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify to himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.This also means that those Christ died for shall be redeemed from unbelief/disobedience or else the designed purpose for Christ's Death failed ! His death is to redeem from all iniquity. The word redeem lutroó means:

I release on receipt of ransom; mid: I redeem, release by paying ransom, liberate, deliver.

The death of Christ is purposed by God and does deliver those Christ died for from bondage, and captivity to sin, which unbelief/disobedience is. By nature men are in a lost state captive, imprisoned in unbelief/disobedience Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. All men in the Justice of God who sinned in Adam, God concluded them in unbelief !

Now the word concluded is key to understanding what redemption does. Its the word sugkleió and means :

I enclose, shut in, make subject to.

to shut together, i.e. enclose

to shup up on all sides, shut up completely; τινα εἰς τινα or τί, so to deliver one up to the power of a person or thing that he is completely shut in, as it were, without means of escape

We by nature are by the Justice of God locked in a prison of unbelief /disobeidnece. Some Translations catch the meaning of the word concluded by translating the verse as follows:

For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.NLT

For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.ESV

For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.NASB

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all. HCSB

God has placed all people into the prison of their own disobedience so that he could be merciful to all people.

So the only way out of the prison house of unbelief/disobeidence is by means of redemption through Christ. Thats why Jesus said to unbelieving jews Jn 8:36

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Jesus was speaking of the power of His redemptive death, by it He would liberate men and women from unbelief/disobedience, which by nature all are confined to.

So if one Christ died for winds up in hell for their sins in unbelief Jn 8:24, that means His death failed the purpose of God, and yet how many false teachers would tell us that many for whom Christ died shall wind up in hell for their sins that He died for in the prison of unbelief. Such false teachers are against Christ, and serve their own lust and pride ! 48

 

[Chaps]

Brightfame, you are taking these passages out of context. Anyone can quote a scripture and attribute any meaning they want to the passage. You have to read the passage in context to understand the meaning. So lets take a look at these passages you quoted:

Titus 2:14

Who is the “us” and the “peculiar people” Paul is referring to? Just prior to this in Titus 1:15-16 he says, “To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.”

Paul is contrasting the unbelieving, divisive and impure with those who believe and are made pure. So, those “peculiar people” who are “zealous for good works” are obviously not the people Paul just referred to as “unfit for any good work.” To suggest that Paul is referring to unbelievers is twisting Paul’s words to mean the exact opposite of what he actually says.

Romans 11:32

Again, you are missing the entire context of this passage that begins in chapter 9. It’s too much to write to go through all the context….but suffice it to say, Paul is examining whether or not the rejection of the Gospel by most of his kin (physical Israelites) means God’s Word has failed. The point he makes in 9-11 is that God’s plan has not failed because in his sovereignty, his plan was to save people by faith, not by nationality. And just because most Israelites were rejecting the Gospel were condemned as a result, does not mean that God had ultimately rejected Israel. Paul says that God’s plan was that through the hard hearts of Israel, Gentiles would come to know salvation….and that eventually, by envy of God’s grace on the Gentiles, Israel would turn back and be saved. Thus, God would use the disobedience of both to eventually lead to people coming back to faith. What he is CLEARLY NOT saying is that faith is irrelevant and all would end up saved. In fact, in this same context, Paul writes directly before your passage in Romans 11:17-24

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God‘s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree

So, you see, the point is that God uses even our disobedience to work to draw people to faith. But what he is clearly NOT saying is that faith is irrelevant or that everyone will ultimately believe. Rather he is saying that God breaks off/cuts off the unbelieving and our salvation is based on our continuing in faith. Paul’s hope and joy though is that even in a bleak situation where his countrymen are persecuting him and unbelieving, that God is using that disobedience to save Gentiles and that one day, the Jews will become envious and turn to faith. However, the key here all the way through Romans 9-12 is that faith is the key. God has elected to save people by faith, both Jews and Gentiles. If either chooses to believe, God welcomes them. If they continue in disbelief they are cut off. I dont know how you can get universalism from this context as it is teaching quite the contrary if you take just a moment to read the surrounding passages.

Finally, John 8:36.

Please read the context of this passage as well. Since you like to study Greek, there is a key word in these passages from John 8:31-47 is the word Eav, or “if.” This word is a conjunction that indicates a conditional phrase. Jesus gives his audience a series of conditional phrases that look something like this…

”If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples…”.
“If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed…”
“IF you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the Words Abraham did…”.
“If God were your Father, you would love me…”.
“If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?”

However, in this context it is VERY evident that his audience is not meeting the conditions for discipleship, freedom, being Abraham’s children, and ultimately God’s children. Because they dont believe, Jesus says this of them on the back half of those conditional Eav (IF) statements:

”everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin”
”you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you.”
”you do what you have heard from your father.”
”you are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.“
”Because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.”

And ultimately Jesus concludes, “Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear them is that you are not of God.” Vs 47.

Honestly, you really have to do some hermeneutical gymnastics to believe that in this context Jesus is trying to argue that Jesus is telling everyone that he is going to set them free and that they would be ultimately saved. In fact, he says just prior in vs 21 “I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going you cannot come.”

That’s a pretty strange thing to say if Jesus is arguing that they will all be saved from their sin and end up with him in heaven. At the end of this discussion with his audience “they picked up stones to throw at him“ vs 59. That’s a pretty weird response from someone who just heard they would be forgiven of their sins and end up in heaven. Well, obviously because that is not what they heard. They heard that they would die in their sins, they were not Abraham’s children but were children of the devil and the reason they did not believe Jesus’ words and that he was from God is because he spoke the truth and their native tongue was lies. So, yeah, they were mad because they understood very clearly what Jesus was telling them..and it wasn’t that they were all universally saved children of God.

 

[Chaps]

Just one more note on the Romans passage for clarity…

The key verse is vers 26 “And in this way, all Israel will be saved…”.

What you need to understand is, in the structure of the Greek sentence, it’s clear that the focus here is the manner of salvation. The focus is not “all Israel will be saved” as if to say every Israelite will end up in heaven (clearly by the context I pointed out above). Rather, the focus is “In this way” or “in this manner” all Israel will be saved.

So essentially, he is saying, “All people who are saved are saved by God’s plan. And this is God’s plan: to save Gentiles by the unbelief of the Jews…and to save Jews by their envy of God’s saving of the Gentiles.” He’s describing the means by which all saved Israelites will come to faith (envy of God’s goodness to the Gentiles) and not arguing that God will save every Israelite.

 

[brightfame52]

His death must cause or give life !

1 Jn 4:9

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Contrary to what false teachers would tell us and have people to believe, that God through Christ offers to all and its up to each individual to either accept or not according to their so called freewill, which is nothing but fables and nonsense , in fact a flat out lie. The Truth is however that those God so Loved and gave His Only Begotten in behalf of, it was for the purpose of effecting or giving them Life, that they may live [Spiritually unto God] through or because of Him. Now understand something, if this Divine Objective is not effected, for each Person He died for, for each Person God so Loved Jn 3:16, then the purpose of Christ's death came to nought, it was defeated , which all false teachers are teaching when they tell us that some for whom Christ died can wind up in hell for their sins in unbelief like these Jn 8:24 ! 49

 

[brightfame52]

Brightfame, you are taking these passages out of context. Anyone can quote a scripture and attribute any meaning they want to the passage. You have to read the passage in context to understand the meaning. So lets take a look at these passages you quoted:

Titus 2:14

Who is the “us” and the “peculiar people” Paul is referring to? Just prior to this in Titus 1:15-16 he says, “To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.”

Paul is contrasting the unbelieving, divisive and impure with those who believe and are made pure. So, those “peculiar people” who are “zealous for good works” are obviously not the people Paul just referred to as “unfit for any good work.” To suggest that Paul is referring to unbelievers is twisting Paul’s words to mean the exact opposite of what he actually says.

Romans 11:32

Again, you are missing the entire context of this passage that begins in chapter 9. It’s too much to write to go through all the context….but suffice it to say, Paul is examining whether or not the rejection of the Gospel by most of his kin (physical Israelites) means God’s Word has failed. The point he makes in 9-11 is that God’s plan has not failed because in his sovereignty, his plan was to save people by faith, not by nationality. And just because most Israelites were rejecting the Gospel were condemned as a result, does not mean that God had ultimately rejected Israel. Paul says that God’s plan was that through the hard hearts of Israel, Gentiles would come to know salvation….and that eventually, by envy of God’s grace on the Gentiles, Israel would turn back and be saved. Thus, God would use the disobedience of both to eventually lead to people coming back to faith. What he is CLEARLY NOT saying is that faith is irrelevant and all would end up saved. In fact, in this same context, Paul writes directly before your passage in Romans 11:17-24



So, you see, the point is that God uses even our disobedience to work to draw people to faith. But what he is clearly NOT saying is that faith is irrelevant or that everyone will ultimately believe. Rather he is saying that God breaks off/cuts off the unbelieving and our salvation is based on our continuing in faith. Paul’s hope and joy though is that even in a bleak situation where his countrymen are persecuting him and unbelieving, that God is using that disobedience to save Gentiles and that one day, the Jews will become envious and turn to faith. However, the key here all the way through Romans 9-12 is that faith is the key. God has elected to save people by faith, both Jews and Gentiles. If either chooses to believe, God welcomes them. If they continue in disbelief they are cut off. I dont know how you can get universalism from this context as it is teaching quite the contrary if you take just a moment to read the surrounding passages.

Finally, John 8:36.

Please read the context of this passage as well. Since you like to study Greek, there is a key word in these passages from John 8:31-47 is the word Eav, or “if.” This word is a conjunction that indicates a conditional phrase. Jesus gives his audience a series of conditional phrases that look something like this…



However, in this context it is VERY evident that his audience is not meeting the conditions for discipleship, freedom, being Abraham’s children, and ultimately God’s children. Because they dont believe, Jesus says this of them on the back half of those conditional Eav (IF) statements:


And ultimately Jesus concludes, “Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear them is that you are not of God.” Vs 47.

Honestly, you really have to do some hermeneutical gymnastics to believe that in this context Jesus is trying to argue that Jesus is telling everyone that he is going to set them free and that they would be ultimately saved. In fact, he says just prior in vs 21 “I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going you cannot come.”

That’s a pretty strange thing to say if Jesus is arguing that they will all be saved from their sin and end up with him in heaven. At the end of this discussion with his audience “they picked up stones to throw at him“ vs 59. That’s a pretty weird response from someone who just heard they would be forgiven of their sins and end up in heaven. Well, obviously because that is not what they heard. They heard that they would die in their sins, they were not Abraham’s children but were children of the devil and the reason they did not believe Jesus’ words and that he was from God is because he spoke the truth and their native tongue was lies. So, yeah, they were mad because they understood very clearly what Jesus was telling them..and it wasn’t that they were all universally saved children of God.

The simple point is, Christs atonement saves from unbelief since it redeems from all iniquity. And you are opposing that.

 

[Chaps]

The simple point is, Christs atonement saves from unbelief since it redeems from all iniquity. And you are opposing that.

There is no verse in the Bible that suggests that unrepentant unbelief is forgiven by the cross. The formula for salvation in the NT is very consistent. We are saved by grace through faith. Nowhere do we read that we are saved by grace in spite of unbelief. The burden of proof is on you to both show a verse that says grace saves the unbelieving and that demonstrates that the verses that clearly state that grace comes through faith contextually teaching something different.

 

[Chaps]

His death must cause or give life !

1 Jn 4:9

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Contrary to what false teachers would tell us and have people to believe, that God through Christ offers to all and its up to each individual to either accept or not according to their so called freewill, which is nothing but fables and nonsense , in fact a flat out lie. The Truth is however that those God so Loved and gave His Only Begotten in behalf of, it was for the purpose of effecting or giving them Life, that they may live [Spiritually unto God] through or because of Him. Now understand something, if this Divine Objective is not effected, for each Person He died for, for each Person God so Loved Jn 3:16, then the purpose of Christ's death came to nought, it was defeated , which all false teachers are teaching when they tell us that some for whom Christ died can wind up in hell for their sins in unbelief like these Jn 8:24 ! 49

I went to great lengths to discuss the context of the verses you quoted. You ignored all of it to just make more statements. So, if you are not going to engage in a discussion then I suppose there is nothing for me to say. I’m not going to keep discussing the context of verses if you refuse to engage in the discussion.

 

[Burn1986]

Rom 5:11

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

The Atonement of Christ has reconciled the elect world to God. It secured and ensured for it [ the elect world] every spiritual blessing needed to live unto God and for His Glory through Jesus christ.

Even before the elect are born into this world as sinners, they have already [by the blood of Christ] been reconciled to God, it will now be a matter of time for it to be manifested.

The atonement accomplished the complete salvation for all whom it was offered for, that is the death of christ. It provides them Faith, repentance, sanctification, redemption, and every needful spiritual blessing to convert them to God, and remain secured forever.

So, should we just sit back and do nothing because only God knows who the elect are, lol. Cmon man. You mad bro?

 

[brightfame52]

There is no verse in the Bible that suggests that unrepentant unbelief is forgiven by the cross. The formula for salvation in the NT is very consistent. We are saved by grace through faith. Nowhere do we read that we are saved by grace in spite of unbelief. The burden of proof is on you to both show a verse that says grace saves the unbelieving and that demonstrates that the verses that clearly state that grace comes through faith contextually teaching something different.

Christs redeeming death redeems from unbelief and all iniquity Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Unbelief is nothing more than iniquity

 

[brightfame52]

I went to great lengths to discuss the context of the verses you quoted. You ignored all of it to just make more statements. So, if you are not going to engage in a discussion then I suppose there is nothing for me to say. I’m not going to keep discussing the context of verses if you refuse to engage in the discussion.

Christs death causes them He died for to live, spiritually and eternally. 1 Jn 4:9

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Thats what happens with the Love of God and Christs death removing our sins, if He died for us, thats an accomplishment, but it appars you deny it, oppose it.

 

[brightfame52]

So, should we just sit back and do nothing because only God knows who the elect are, lol. Cmon man. You mad bro?

This is a dumb response. Not even worth responding to.

 

[brightfame52]

@reneweddaybyday

it is clear from Scripture that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all mankind ... all descendants of Adam:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

so you are saying that "sin cannot and will not be imputed to them".

Yes these are the elect and sin cannot and will not be imputed to anyone composing the world in these scriptures.