Can the nonelect ever be born-again? (2 Kings 22:27) With the elect thou wilt be elect: and with the perverse thou wilt be perverted.

[CS1]

Show me where it says that in the word of God in that context.

Grace
in the Old Testament:

favour, Genesis 6:8

New Testament Grace :

chairs

1. that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech

Luke 2:40

Gift:

Old Testamant naw-than' Hebrew Number 8:19

1. to give, bestow, grant, permit, ascribe, employ, devote, consecrate, dedicate, pay wages, sell, exchange, lend, commit, entrust, give over, deliver up, yield produce, occasion, produce, requite to, report, mention, utter, stretch out, extend

New Testament do-reh-ah' Jihn 4:10

1. a gift

Gift Roman 5:15

1. a favour with which one receives without any merit of his own
2. the economy of divine grace, by which the pardon of sin and eternal salvation is appointed to sinners in consideration of the merits of Christ laid hold of by faith

 

[CS1]

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...a-select-or-exclusive-group-of-people.214624/

That did not say :

"Jesus Died on the cross for the Just/Elect/Saved whose names are written in the book of life."

You said that the text did not

 

[CS1]

I Just have to say its been a pleasure to be in your presence, and also I owe you an apology for doubting your well mannered patience tolerance and ministering gifts

I truly mean that
😊

Thank you very much but I don't know what you need to apologize for

 

[CS1]

God does not love unrepentant sinners who are in hell.

FYI, the word of God says Romans 5:8

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

to place together, to set in the same place, to bring or band together.

You say God DOES NOT LOVE THE UNREPENTED SINNER WHO ARE IN HELL...


God doesn't remember them anymore, those who are in hell, so HIS love is NOT in HELL, the place of eternal Judgment.

That is why you do not want to go there.

 

[maxamir]

The word of God says He came to pay for the sins of the world. FYI, Adam was not a Jew or Hebrew

He was the first Human being of God who transgressed against God, and death entered the world.

Jesus conquered Death, hell, and the Grave. He did that not just for Jews.

We are His creation. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

why can't you answer a simple question?

Is the Scripture below true or not?

Mat 1:21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."

Who are His people?

 

[rogerg]

After reading this, I think I have a question: Is it possible to assume that Grace is offered to all and that it has to be the work of those who received it if they are not the elect? I don't see where Salvation is offered to all means, "If not elected", only some kind of work for salvation must be done.

I don't think so. I believe that in order for grace to be grace, it can't be offered but only applied to those chosen by God and covered by Christ's offering at a time of His choosing.

I also think it is a presupposition. To say:
" I understand your position to be that salvation is offered to all but to become saved it is up to a person to first do something such as to produce belief in themselves in order to obtain it."

Yes, you are correct, it was my supposition. I tried to provide a contrast between your position and mine. I took my best cut at it but got it wrong; no misrepresentation of your position was intended - sorry if it came across that way.

I never believed that a person worked for salvation, nor do I think that after the preaching of the Gospel, the Holy Spirit convicts the person who is able to see their need for Jesus. They had to be drawn to Christ, and that is done only by the work of the Holy Spirit, who is God. Once the ability to receive the gift freely is not of works, one can accept it, reject it, or neglect it.

Accepting a free gift is not a work It is just receiving it or not.

I believe it that is a work. If someone has to accept that gift in order to receive it, then the accepting of it is a work. Anything that one has to do, no matter how great nor slight that "do" is, it is still a work- there is no middle ground allowed between grace and works. As I understand it, by grace means there is nothing that can affect someone's receiving of salvation for the elect, including by the recipient themself- there are no prerequisites imposed from an exceedingly merciful and gracious God through Jesus Christ given to those who in no way deserve it, solely based upon His divine prerogative and good pleasure: He just gives it. Further, by having to accept it, that would make of someone their own saviour, because based upon their action, not Christ's, their salvation would either be granted to them or not. This, as far as I can see, leaves Christ entirely out of the actual salvation transaction (so to speak) making Him not the Saviour.

 

[CS1]

why can't you answer a simple question?

Is the Scripture below true or not?

Mat 1:21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."

Who are His people?

LOL You need to provide context to the text. Matt chapter one is the genealogy Of Jesus back to David as Luke chapter three is the genealogy back Adam.

In Matthew chapter 1 it the Line of David who are the Jews His People as Jesus said Salvation is of the Jews . In luke is is Adam which is not a Jew or hebrew but First man.

nice try.

 

[CS1]

I don't think so. I believe that in order for grace to be grace, it can't be offered but only applied to those chosen by God and covered by Christ's offering at a time of His choosing.



Yes, you are correct, it was my supposition. I tried to provide a contrast between your position and mine. I took my best cut at it but got it wrong; no misrepresentation of your position was intended - sorry if it came across that way.



I believe it that is a work. If someone has to accept that gift in order to receive it, then the accepting of it is a work. Anything that one has to do, no matter how great nor slight that "do" is, it is still a work- there is no middle ground allowed between grace and works. As I understand it, by grace means there is nothing that can affect someone's receiving of salvation for the elect, including by the recipient themself- there are no prerequisites imposed from an exceedingly merciful and gracious God through Jesus Christ given to those who in no way deserve it, solely based upon His divine prerogative and good pleasure: He just gives it. Further, by having to accept it, that would make of someone their own saviour, because based upon their action, not Christ's, their salvation would either be granted to them or not. This, as far as I can see, leaves Christ entirely out of the actual salvation transaction (so to speak) making Him not the Saviour.

If grace has to be applied, then it is not free. It is imposed. It is not EARNED it is mandated.


Again, the idea that accepting a gift is work is not correct. That is an opinion but not supported by the word of God.

The context of works has nothing contextually to do with grace, nor can it be equated with grace because one has accepted a gift.

Save by Grace through faith not works The Greek context of Works as :

business, employment, that which any one is occupied ergon


Grace has to be received. Receiving is apolambanō

1. to receive
   1. of what is promised

That is not work. It is an action, but it is not payment for doing work.

 

[rogerg]

If grace has to be applied, then it is not free. It is imposed. It is not EARNED it is mandated.


Again, the idea that accepting a gift is work is not correct. That is an opinion but not supported by the word of God.

The context of works has nothing contextually to do with grace, nor can it be equated with grace because one has accepted a gift.

Save by Grace through faith not works The Greek context of Works as :

business, employment, that which any one is occupied ergon


Grace has to be received. Receiving is apolambanō

1. to receive
   1. of what is promised

That is not work. It is an action, but it is not payment for doing work.

think we're going around in circles at this point, so until and unless one of us comes to see it differently,
let's terminate for now.

 

[Charlie_2024]

I've been doing a bit of home work 😊 ok is this quite accurate by John Calvin




John Calvin is perhaps best known for his doctrine of predestination. He taught that God determined before all time who would be eternally saved and who would be condemned to hell. Christians, he said, should not question God's plan, but rather trust in God's good intentions for their personal life and destiny.

John Calvin was just a man, we don't worship or idolize him in any way shape or form. We don't agree with all of his views, he only became famous because he pointed out errors with Jacob Arminius's interpretation of the gospel. Jacob concluded that, salvation is dependent on the individuals willingness to obey the gospel message.

Calvin responded to Arminius by compiling the TULIP table, which is around 100 verses of scripture which say that salvation is not attained by the will of the individual to obey the gospel.
He argued that all of those verse point tot he fact that man is unable to obey the gospel by his own will, strength and good works. And that he is dependent on God to provide him with all the necessary things to enable him to obey the gospel and endure to the end.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

John Calvin was just a man, we don't worship or idolize him in any way shape or form. We don't agree with all of his views, he only became famous because he pointed out errors with Jacob Arminius's interpretation of the gospel. Jacob concluded that, salvation is dependent on the individuals willingness to obey the gospel message.

Calvin responded to Arminius by compiling the TULIP table, which is around 100 verses of scripture which say that salvation is not attained by the will of the individual to obey the gospel.
He argued that all of those verse point tot he fact that man is unable to obey the gospel by his own will, strength and good works. And that he is dependent on God to provide him with all the necessary things to enable him to obey the gospel and endure to the end.

look at it again charlie

John Calvin quote.

John Calvin is perhaps best known for his doctrine of predestination. He taught that God determined before all time who would be eternally saved and who would be condemned to hell. Christians, he said, should not question God's plan, but rather trust in God's good intentions for their personal life and destiny.

This is on record of what John Calvin said

Think about what I'm asking you.

Firstly Charlie John Calvin says you are only be concerned about the good concerns God has for you and only trust in his good intension. But yet all theese people calling themselves Calvinists are mostly concerned by the the bad things God has in store for other people.


Secondly Charley, John says here don't question God's plan.

So how is it even remotely possible John Calvin even wrote the tulip doctrine that questions Gods plan, like really questions it.

So Charly don't ye think someone's had you over with this tulip doctrine now.

Do you really know for sure John wrote it

 

[CS1]

think we're going around in circles at this point, so until and unless one of us comes to see it differently,
let's terminate for now.

ok no problem. I don't need my understanding accepted only elected LOL

 

[CS1]

John Calvin was just a man, we don't worship or idolize him in any way shape or form. We don't agree with all of his views, he only became famous because he pointed out errors with Jacob Arminius's interpretation of the gospel. Jacob concluded that, salvation is dependent on the individuals willingness to obey the gospel message.

Calvin responded to Arminius by compiling the TULIP table, which is around 100 verses of scripture which say that salvation is not attained by the will of the individual to obey the gospel.
He argued that all of those verse point tot he fact that man is unable to obey the gospel by his own will, strength and good works. And that he is dependent on God to provide him with all the necessary things to enable him to obey the gospel and endure to the end.

yes you do.

 

[Charlie_2024]

look at it again charlie

John Calvin quote.

John Calvin is perhaps best known for his doctrine of predestination. He taught that God determined before all time who would be eternally saved and who would be condemned to hell. Christians, he said, should not question God's plan, but rather trust in God's good intentions for their personal life and destiny.

This is on record of what John Calvin said

Think about what I'm asking you.

Firstly Charlie John Calvin says you are only be concerned about the good concerns God has for you and only trust in his good intension. But yet all theese people calling themselves Calvinists are mostly concerned by the the bad things God has in store for other people.


Secondly Charley, John says here don't question God's plan.

So how is it even remotely possible John Calvin even wrote the tulip doctrine that questions Gods plan, like really questions it.

So Charly don't ye think someone's had you over with this tulip doctrine now.

Do you really know for sure John wrote it

I don't see anything biblically wrong with not questioning God's plan. And I don't see anything biblically wrong with trusting that everything God does is good concerning our destiny. I would like some scripture, to refute these things. Otherwise they remain biblically sound doctrine.

You have misunderstood what Calvin said, concerning only trusting in Gods good Intensions while Calvinists concern themselves with the bad things God has in store for the non elect. The problem with that view is, you falsely believe that God is capable of doing bad things.

The truth is that God is not capable of doing anything bad, so when He casts our unbelieving family and friends into hell we will praise Him for it because that's what He promised to do. He must punish sinners, otherwise He wouldn't be a just God.

Your last point is wrong as well, because Calvin's TULIP table doesn't question Gods plan. It only confirms it as every single verse in the table is Gods Word. So it actually confirms that TULIP is Gods word and not Calvin's.

So I would suggest you look at every verse in the TULIP table and let me know which are not Gods Word

 

[Charlie_2024]

yes you do.

well if that was true, then i can say that you worship Jacob Arminius.

The truth is every professing Christian must choose one of the two interpretations of the gospel. If they claim that a third option exists, then they are flat out liars.

I have had my house on offer for free to anyone who can find the mysterious non existent third option. It's been freely available for years, and nobody has claimed it yet so that proves that I'm right.

 

[Burn1986]

Hmm tough one. Have you ever read the book Bruchko? In it a missionary leads native South American tribes to Jesus. They were all perverse but got saved and changed. Also Jesus said “This gospel of the kingdom will be preached to all nations, and then the end will come.” We can also go into a long discussion on God changing His mind.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I don't see anything biblically wrong with not questioning God's plan. And I don't see anything biblically wrong with trusting that everything God does is good concerning our destiny. I would like some scripture, to refute these things. Otherwise they remain biblically sound doctrine.

You have misunderstood what Calvin said, concerning only trusting in Gods good Intensions while Calvinists concern themselves with the bad things God has in store for the non elect. The problem with that view is, you falsely believe that God is capable of doing bad things.

The truth is that God is not capable of doing anything bad, so when He casts our unbelieving family and friends into hell we will praise Him for it because that's what He promised to do. He must punish sinners, otherwise He wouldn't be a just God.

Your last point is wrong as well, because Calvin's TULIP table doesn't question Gods plan. It only confirms it as every single verse in the table is Gods Word. So it actually confirms that TULIP is Gods word and not Calvin's.

So I would suggest you look at every verse in the TULIP table and let me know which are not Gods Word

Well now you say that God does not do bad things to people.

Well is God bad for doing bad things to people.

No he is not bad.

When a person deserves hell they deserve hell.

This is all that needs to be said.

We don't need some made 100 pages doctrine to elaborate on that.

So if John Calvin says don't question Gods plan and he says only be concerned in his Good intentions, how is it possible John Calvin wrote huge doctrine on What bad things God Will do to people

So now you say the more people sin the more they distant them selves from God.

But yet you have to obey to stop distancing your self from God so why make this an Armenian doctrine.


Well anyway how do you know John Calvin wrote this tulip doctrine 500 years ago.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Then i have another question @Charlie_2024

Why is John Calvin pictured with Martin luther

Who was John Calvin ?

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I don't see anything biblically wrong with not questioning God's plan. And I don't see anything biblically wrong with trusting that everything God does is good concerning our destiny. I would like some scripture, to refute these things. Otherwise they remain biblically sound doctrine.

You have misunderstood what Calvin said, concerning only trusting in Gods good Intensions while Calvinists concern themselves with the bad things God has in store for the non elect. The problem with that view is, you falsely believe that God is capable of doing bad things.

. Well I'm asking you why John Calvin said not to question what bad things God can do to people.

why should i need to prove anything.

was he saying not to question God's authority, I don't know Charlie but is that biblical

 

[Charlie_2024]

Hmm tough one. Have you ever read the book Bruchko? In it a missionary leads native South American tribes to Jesus. They were all perverse but got saved and changed. Also Jesus said “This gospel of the kingdom will be preached to all nations, and then the end will come.” We can also go into a long discussion on God changing His mind.

It's common knowledge that God is not a racist. He chose people from every tribe and tongue, that means from every single ethnic group.

You will never find any evidence of God changing his mind. That's just ridiculous to even suggest something so silly.