Predestination is misunderstood...

[Cameron143]

You just don't hear a word I say. How can a man have no need of God when I have said repeatedly that man needs God's grace to suppress the sin nature so that one is free from it's bondage in order to respond. He needs to be made free first so he can respond from his own will in accordance with his own desire. Some will accept and some will reject. You don't have to have "spiritual hearing" to know right from wrong or good from evil. Romans 1 type responded to God, they were not alive and never will be.

The soul is not created depraved. It becomes that way because it is under a slave master, the law of sin in the flesh. No soul could be saved if the law of sin was in the heart, we all would have to be destroyed and God would have to start over.

You don't get faith to be saved. Having faith is evidence the word of God is working in your soul. In respect to salvation, it is the acceptance of the Gospel as true that produces the faith unto salvation.

It seems to me you cannot distinguish between our believing, a volition response of our own free will and faith, a work of God by means of His word.

Your right about one thing, nothing you say will change my position. I have no intention of exchanging the truth for error.

I realize that you think I'm not hearing you, but that is not the case.. I realize you said grace was necessary in salvation. What I said was your version doesn't require grace until after faith. You believe the natural man can exercise faith without God producing the faith first. But that's not the order. It's grace that produces faith that produces salvation.

At any rate, grace and peace.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

The reason why God knows all things in the future is because He has decreed all things that shall come to pass.

Pro_16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.

Can you take a verse any more out of context?
If you read the Tanakh/Scroll of Mishlei/Proverbs you will see verses 32 and 33 are one complete thought.

לבט֤וֹב אֶ֣רֶךְ אַ֖פַּיִם מִגִּבּ֑וֹר וּמשֵׁ֥ל בְּ֜רוּח֗וֹ מִלֹּכֵ֥ד עִֽיר: לגבַּחֵיק יוּטַ֣ל אֶת־הַגּוֹרָ֑ל וּ֜מֵיְהוָ֗ה כָּל־מִשְׁפָּטֽוֹ:
One who is slow to anger is better than a mighty man, and one who rules over his spirit [is better] than one who conquers a city. The lot is cast in the lap, but all his judgment is from the Lord.

 

[maxamir]

Again, this is your view. Grace is merely unmerited favor. Since God owes nothing to anyone and everything we receive comes from God, everything is of grace.
To suggest that this somehow diminishes the grace of God in salvation or lessens the value of the cross is simply too narrow a view of grace in my opinion. Rather, it highlights the necessity of grace, and points singularly to Christ and Him crucified as the ultimate and fullest expression of grace.

My view is based upon the whole counsel of God found in Holy Scripture which is hated by the natural man and I have already given you multiple verses that prove that God's grace is particular only to those He loves.

From man's point of view the goodness that he receives from God may indeed be viewed as being favour from God but that does not mean it is indeed grace from God which is always given in light of His eternal decree.

If God gives a man a million dollars who does not deserve it and he squanders it on evil things which he thinks is good, does that therefore make it grace if the money God had given him was used to make that person more accountable and therefore brought to a greater condemnation?

God gives good things to those He hates in order to glorify His perfectly good, holy justice and wrath upon them. It is only those who falsely think that God loves everyone that attribute His grace to the wicked reprobate and in doing so, cheapen His grace and end up perverting His Gospel.

Please make your arguments from Scripture.

Psa 92:7 When the wicked spring up like grass, And when all the workers of iniquity flourish, It is that they may be destroyed forever.

 

[Genez]

I can accept that you have terrible discernment. It's not so much that I don't need to grow continually in grace or be under spiritual guidance, but you just demeaned the most godly man I've ever met. So if you desire to have me take you seriously, you might want to follow the example of Jesus who began to DO and then to TEACH.

The truest measure of a Christian isn't what they know, but how much they are actually like Christ.

Keep in mind. He is the Word.
And, we are to grow in grace and *knowledge.*

But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To him be glory both now and forever! Amen." 2 Pet 3:18

Without knowledge we can not become transformed out of our own way of seeing Christ.

Accurate teaching will at times rub us the wrong way when our sentimental sacred concepts and beliefs contrasted with His Way.


“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord." Isaiah 55:8

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That is why Jesus warned those claiming to be wanting to be a disciple of his the following.

Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, ​

and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but ​

whoever loses his life for My sake will find it." Mat 16:24-25​

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If one desires sound doctrinal teaching (everyone claims they do) he is going to need to deny himself and lose his old cherished way of thinking.​

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For when he loses his life? He will find his real life in Christ...​

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For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord." Isaiah 55:8​

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God provides only a few good teachers. Not many. 2 Timothy 4:3...​

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grace and peace .......​

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

The reason why God knows all things in the future is because He has decreed all things that shall come to pass.

Pro_16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.

Obviously your just just Not getting it.


If God had of predetermined cains future, why would he be warning him in advance not to strike Able.

Obviously Cain was not aware he was going to strike able.

But God was, and God was telling him right before he struck able, to do the right thing, as sin was crouching at his door, and he also told him he could rule over sin.. right before he struck able. he told Cain if you do the right thing you will be accepted.

Don't forget God told him this after he saw his anger building up for able no doubt.

Which means God does not set a person's next move, he just knows it.

And each person is pre warned and has the ability to not sin, and do what is right.

Meaning a person is able to produce fruits of repentance before there regenerated.

 

[Cameron143]

And what do you think is the purpose of the Gospel, other than to generate saving faith? Looks like you have little or no regard for the Gospel, which is "the power of God unto salvation" (Rom 1:16).

To the contrary. I have the highest regard for the word of God. But the gospel alone doesn't save. If it did, there would be alot more saved people. And people would only have to hear it once. But that's not the case, is it?
Maybe, just maybe, there's a little something more going on.

 

[maxamir]

I think any wise person knows it is wise to define your terms in a discussion.

Considering the big black bold text it seems you are exhibiting the typical behaviors that "Calvinists" "Reformed" exhibit.

Since you do not know what Hell is but most likely think it is a place filled with real fire at the center of the earth, if such a place existed which I highly doubt, He would love those that are there.

Thank you for proving that you do not yet know the thrice Holy God of Holy Scripture who loves justice so much that He killed every man, woman, child and animal in the flood except those He had chosen to save in the ark and showed His holy hatred for evil even more so by killing His own Son at the hands of evil men to save all of His people He loves by paying the price they could never pay and satisfying that which an eternity in Hell could never do.

Hell is only a temporary place waiting to be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:14) which Christ warned of often and spoke of more than Heaven in order to warn His people who are written in His Book of Life.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

To the contrary. I have the highest regard for the word of God. But the gospel alone doesn't save. If it did, there would be alot more saved people. And people would only have to hear it once. But that's not the case, is it?
Maybe, just maybe, there's a little something more going on.

Why are you not willing to accept a person can produce fruits of repentance before there regenerated Cameron.

And why are you not refuting hyper grace.

 

[Genez]

The reason why God knows all things in the future is because He has decreed all things that shall come to pass.

God always knew much much-more of all the possibilities for our future.

So, to get to the essence of who and what we are? God decreed what everyone's life to be, so we would not have to live to be a million years old to exhaust all the options for testing us that God saw.

The decrees of God gives mankind a shortened life time of options. Just enough time for us to discover what God's decreed lifetime for us shall absolutely reveal about us...

grace and peace ................

 

[Sipsey]

To the contrary. I have the highest regard for the word of God. But the gospel alone doesn't save. If it did, there would be alot more saved people. And people would only have to hear it once. But that's not the case, is it?
Maybe, just maybe, there's a little something more going on.

Romans 1:16 (KJV)
[16] For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Thank you for proving that you do not yet know the thrice Holy God of Holy Scripture who loves justice so much that He killed every man, woman, child and animal in the flood except those He had chosen to save in the ark and showed His holy hatred for evil even more so by killing His own Son at the hands of evil men to save all of His people He loves by paying the price they could never pay and satisfying that which an eternity in Hell could never do.

Hell is only a temporary place waiting to be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:14) which Christ warned of often and spoke of more than Heaven in order to warn His people who are written in His Book of Life.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

He also gave them 120 years to Repent, built the Ark before them, and while Noah loaded the Ark did not shut the doors on them so they could have entered until God said shut the doors.

 

[maxamir]

Can you take a verse any more out of context?
If you read the Tanakh/Scroll of Mishlei/Proverbs you will see verses 32 and 33 are one complete thought.

לבט֤וֹב אֶ֣רֶךְ אַ֖פַּיִם מִגִּבּ֑וֹר וּמשֵׁ֥ל בְּ֜רוּח֗וֹ מִלֹּכֵ֥ד עִֽיר: לגבַּחֵיק יוּטַ֣ל אֶת־הַגּוֹרָ֑ל וּ֜מֵיְהוָ֗ה כָּל־מִשְׁפָּטֽוֹ:
One who is slow to anger is better than a mighty man, and one who rules over his spirit [is better] than one who conquers a city. The lot is cast in the lap, but all his judgment is from the Lord.

Are you denying that God is Lord, being sovereign over all things even the heart of men?

Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Are you denying that God is Lord, being sovereign over all things even the heart of men?

Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.

I am rejecting how you are presenting the Holy Word of God.

 

[maxamir]

Obviously your just just Not getting it.


If God had of predetermined cains future, why would he be warning him in advance not to strike Able.

Obviously Cain was not aware he was going to strike able.

But God was, and God was telling him right before he struck able, to do the right thing, as sin was crouching at his door, and he also told him he could rule over sin.. right before he struck able. he told Cain if you do the right thing you will be accepted.

Don't forget God told him this after he saw his anger building up for able no doubt.

Which means God does not set a person's next move, he just knows it.

And each person is pre warned and has the ability to not sin, and do what is right.

Meaning a person is able to produce fruits of repentance before there regenerated.

Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.

The Gospel is a proclamation of what God has done in Christ and in it is the warning that goes to all men but that does not mean that God desires all men without exception to be saved.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Thank you for proving that you do not yet know the thrice Holy God of Holy Scripture who loves justice so much that He killed every man, woman, child and animal in the flood except those He had chosen to save in the ark and showed His holy hatred for evil even more so by killing His own Son at the hands of evil men to save all of His people He loves by paying the price they could never pay and satisfying that which an eternity in Hell could never do.

Hell is only a temporary place waiting to be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:14) which Christ warned of often and spoke of more than Heaven in order to warn His people who are written in His Book of Life.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Did the babies who died in the flood go to to hell to.

 

[Cameron143]

Why are you not willing to accept a person can produce fruits of repentance before there regenerated Cameron.

And why are you not refuting hyper grace.

A Christian can do nothing apart from Christ, but a natural man can produce fruit? Hmmmm.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.

The Gospel is a proclamation of what God has done in Christ and in it is the warning that goes to all men but that does not mean that God desires all men without exception to be saved.

17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

 

[Cameron143]

Romans 1:16 (KJV)
[16] For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

To everyone who believes. It does nothing for unbelievers.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.

The Gospel is a proclamation of what God has done in Christ and in it is the warning that goes to all men but that does not mean that God desires all men without exception to be saved.

God decides who is saved and he does so by prewarning everyone of sin before they sin.

If God is going to warn a murderer not to commit a sin before he commits one.

Why shouldn't he warn everybody else, or why wouldn't he.

And why would he warn people before they sin.

Will i finally get some sense of you.

Or even a bit of agreement.

 

[Sipsey]

To everyone who believes. It doesn't nothing for unbelievers.

Thy were unbelievers, till they believed.