The reformation began in 157. That's 507 years ago. People who follow Luther's or Calvin''s or other early reformers have fossilised doctrines and are as stuck in their traditions and in need of reform as the Catholics were in 1517., and the Jews were in 30AD Arguably, we should not be reformed, but reforming. Many Calvinists and Lutherans may be Reformed (Red) but non-Reforming. (No Ring). What we have been told scripture is teaching should be constantly open to challenge and perhaps adjustment as biblical dialogue with others reveals new insights into what biblical texts are actually saying.
Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
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God planned for Israel to remain in Egypt for 400 years. Moses raised himself up 10 tears early and delayed God's plan until 430 years.
God planned for the Jews to enter the promised land in the same year they left Egypt, but the Jews' unbelief delayed God's plan for 40 more years. God planted the Israelites in Canaan as a vineyard expecting them to produce good grapes, but their rebellion only produced wild grapes.
Jesus wanted to gather the Jews to Himself as a hen gathers he chicks, but they were unwilling. God gave the earth to man to have dominion over and subdue, but man allowed himself instead to be subdued, and things went so far off course that God regretted making man and destroyed almpst all in a flood.
God's intermediate plans sometimes fail, but He is wise enough to improvise ways to rescue the situation and keep his ultimate and primary goal, His END, viable.
God planned for the Jews to enter the promised land in the same year they left Egypt, but the Jews' unbelief delayed God's plan for 40 more years. God planted the Israelites in Canaan as a vineyard expecting them to produce good grapes, but their rebellion only produced wild grapes.
Jesus wanted to gather the Jews to Himself as a hen gathers he chicks, but they were unwilling. God gave the earth to man to have dominion over and subdue, but man allowed himself instead to be subdued, and things went so far off course that God regretted making man and destroyed almpst all in a flood.
God's intermediate plans sometimes fail, but He is wise enough to improvise ways to rescue the situation and keep his ultimate and primary goal, His END, viable.
You need to read the Bible more carefully. I am tired of explaining this point. When you have read Scripture more carefully we can continue the discussion.
You can start here: "Such prayer for all is good and welcomed before God our Savior, since he wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:3
You can start here: "Such prayer for all is good and welcomed before God our Savior, since he wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:3
I started researching this idea about Irresistible Grace. God gave those who died in Noah's Flood 120 years to repent. God warned them and then preached to them and built the Ark before them. If this Grace was so irresistible as the Reformed claim, Everyone should have been begging to get into the Ark. And of course, the Reformers made up excuses knowing this fact like Election and Predestination.
James said when you fail at obeying one single Law you've failed at the whole Law. And we see that clearly with the Reformed. They fail at many points and then make up new rules to cover for their false idealism's.
James said when you fail at obeying one single Law you've failed at the whole Law. And we see that clearly with the Reformed. They fail at many points and then make up new rules to cover for their false idealism's.
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In Heb 9:
If the blood of bulls and goats with the ashes of the heffer sprinkling the unclean suffice for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who offered himself by the eternal Spirit without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God. For this cause, he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of sins under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
If the blood of bulls and goats with the ashes of the heffer sprinkling the unclean suffice for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who offered himself by the eternal Spirit without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God. For this cause, he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of sins under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Actually, in my version the Hebrew is "chanan" (Strong's 2603) which means:
chanan
OT:2603 chanan (khaw-nan'); a primitive root [compare OT:2583]; properly, to bend or stoop in kindness to an inferior; to favor, bestow; causatively to implore (i.e. move to favor by petition):
KJV - beseech, fair, (be, find, shew) favour (-able), be (deal, give, grant (gracious (-ly), intreat, (be) merciful, have (shew) mercy (on, upon), have pity upon, pray, make supplication, very.
(Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
Last night another thought occurred to me about Isa 26:9-10. There is another class of scripture that strongly supports all the translations I posted yesterday: All the passages in Proverbs that speak to child discipline! Proverbs is very clear on how God's people should deal with their unruly, willfully disobedient children. None of those passages teach that parents should treat their children with kindness, softness, complacency or with grace. Such children are to be disciplined -- even with the "rod". Dealing graciously with such children would only reinforce their rebelliousness! And so it is with those children when they grow into adulthood! The human heart is what it is -- incorrigible! Just as foolishness is bound up in the heart of children (Prov 22:15), so it will be when they grow up, if godly parents don't deal with their kids as scripture prescribes -- and even then...there's still no iron-clad guarantee that the wayward child will grow to become godly.
So, I'll stick with the unanimous consensus of over a dozen translations, worked on by various teams of original language experts, to the one of your choice for all the reasons I have stated to date.
chanan
OT:2603 chanan (khaw-nan'); a primitive root [compare OT:2583]; properly, to bend or stoop in kindness to an inferior; to favor, bestow; causatively to implore (i.e. move to favor by petition):
KJV - beseech, fair, (be, find, shew) favour (-able), be (deal, give, grant (gracious (-ly), intreat, (be) merciful, have (shew) mercy (on, upon), have pity upon, pray, make supplication, very.
(Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
Last night another thought occurred to me about Isa 26:9-10. There is another class of scripture that strongly supports all the translations I posted yesterday: All the passages in Proverbs that speak to child discipline! Proverbs is very clear on how God's people should deal with their unruly, willfully disobedient children. None of those passages teach that parents should treat their children with kindness, softness, complacency or with grace. Such children are to be disciplined -- even with the "rod". Dealing graciously with such children would only reinforce their rebelliousness! And so it is with those children when they grow into adulthood! The human heart is what it is -- incorrigible! Just as foolishness is bound up in the heart of children (Prov 22:15), so it will be when they grow up, if godly parents don't deal with their kids as scripture prescribes -- and even then...there's still no iron-clad guarantee that the wayward child will grow to become godly.
So, I'll stick with the unanimous consensus of over a dozen translations, worked on by various teams of original language experts, to the one of your choice for all the reasons I have stated to date.
Then your interpretation of those events contradict the scriptures I quoted and cited yesterday, don't they? But I can't help but notice that you don't even attempt to reconcile your contradictions. Why is that? Clearly, you imply that scripture is wrong and you're right!
Also, you confuse God's eternal decrees with his desires. Jesus "desired" to gather Israel (his Father's chosen people) unto himself but as you said, they were unwilling...and obviously God was equally as unwilling to change the nation's heart toward his Son, even though he clearly could have done so under his New Covenant promises (Jer 31: 31-33; Ezek 36: 24-27) -- but he was willing to save thousands of Jews (a remnant of national Israel) after Christ's resurrection. God could have even raised up stones from the earth to become true children of Abraham (Mat 3:9), but he chose to not do that in spite of what Jesus "desired". And all for good reason, I might add! It was not in God's eternal plan. But what God did decree in eternity was that national Israel reject his Messiah, which by the way is a major theme in Matthew's Gospel and clearly prophesied in Isaiah 53. And Jesus fully understood this, too, since he also told the nation that the kingdom would be taken away from them and given to another nation who would bear the fruit thereof (Mat 21:43), and then just a few chapters later He predicted the destruction of the nation, the temple and of Old Covenant JUDAISM in the Mount of Olives Discourse! But are we supposed to believe (as so many dispensationalists mistakenly do) that God was "forced" to go to plan B when the Jews rejected his Messiah and turn his attention to the Church for the time being -- because his plan was foiled?
As far as the 400 or 430 years in Egypt is concerned, I'm not a rigid literalist when it comes to all numbers. Numbers are often used in scripture in a figurative sense. Many numbers actually have theological significance, e.g. 3, 4, 7, 10, 12 or their multiples or sums. (A very good example of what I have just stated can be seen in the 70 years of the Babylonian captivity of not only Judah but of many nations, if you read Jeremiah carefully. So did all these nations and Judah get carried off into Babylon on the same day and released on the same day!? Even Judah was exiled to Babylon in stages, as likely were the other nations! It's impossible to know predcisely how many hears the nations and Judah were in exile!) Since I don't have the time or inclination to delve into this particular issue I will simply refer you to the link below to read or not read, as you wish. It provides alternative explanations to the apparent contradiction.
https://jewishbelief.com/210-to-430-how-long-were-the-israelites-in-egypt/
With respect to God "grieving" or "lamenting" over the creation he made because mankind rebelled against Him, this is anthropomorphic language meant to convey God's heart. Again, his destruction of the antediluvian world was his strange or alien work that did not please him -- because this is not what God desired to do -- but He had to judge the world because his holy nature required him to do so. God cannot act contrary to his essence! God's eyes are too pure to look upon evil (Hab 1:13), let alone for him to tolerate or forbear with it indefintiely.
As I pointed out a couple of weeks or so on this thread, we mere mortals with our finite minds have strong tendency to view redemptive history (which was planned by God in eternity) on just the horizontal level -- as "everything under the sun", which such a limited view can only serve to also skew our view of the majesty, wisdom, power and glory of God. We can never see the whole picture because of our finiteness. Yet, God in eternity in an instant saw every single, minute detail of his plan, and how each and every human being fits into his grand, intricate redemptive mosaic. We know, for example, that God's creation was "very good" and that God intended for man to co-rule with him to subdue the earth, expand the glory of Eden and to fill the world with humans. Instead...Adam rebelled against his Creator.
God plan failed, did it? Not hardly! Whether we view the Fall as occurring by God's decretive will or his permissive will, we can be certain that it came to past because it would still bring glory to God, because he thought it would be better for mankind to have the knowledge of Good and Evil, rather that not, and because in his infinite wisdom he can turn Evil into Good. What God intended 6,000 or 10,000 years ago, or whenever it was that this universe came into existence, will most assuredly come to past, according to the Book of Revelation and a large number of OT prophecies, as well. This earth will be restored to its Edenic Glory -- PLUS! What God intended in eternity will come to past in temporal reality when Christ returns. So many Christians, sadly, fail to understand three essential facts about God: The first is that all these many thousands of years -- even if they turn out to be tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of years are less than a blip on God's radar (2 Pet 3:8); for eternity is timeless. The second thing many of us seem to be prone to forget is that God doesn't think like we do, nor are his ways like ours (Isa 55:8-9). And the third is that God will most certainly accomplish all that he planned in eternity (Isa 55:10-11).
It saddens me to learn, sir, that you,. evidently, have a pretty low view of the majesty and glory and power and wisdom of God. But I have found that this is not unusual for those whose theology is Non-Reformed; for NR theology also extends to Eschatology, which is inextricably entwined with Soteriology and all the other branches of theology, as well.
Also, you confuse God's eternal decrees with his desires. Jesus "desired" to gather Israel (his Father's chosen people) unto himself but as you said, they were unwilling...and obviously God was equally as unwilling to change the nation's heart toward his Son, even though he clearly could have done so under his New Covenant promises (Jer 31: 31-33; Ezek 36: 24-27) -- but he was willing to save thousands of Jews (a remnant of national Israel) after Christ's resurrection. God could have even raised up stones from the earth to become true children of Abraham (Mat 3:9), but he chose to not do that in spite of what Jesus "desired". And all for good reason, I might add! It was not in God's eternal plan. But what God did decree in eternity was that national Israel reject his Messiah, which by the way is a major theme in Matthew's Gospel and clearly prophesied in Isaiah 53. And Jesus fully understood this, too, since he also told the nation that the kingdom would be taken away from them and given to another nation who would bear the fruit thereof (Mat 21:43), and then just a few chapters later He predicted the destruction of the nation, the temple and of Old Covenant JUDAISM in the Mount of Olives Discourse! But are we supposed to believe (as so many dispensationalists mistakenly do) that God was "forced" to go to plan B when the Jews rejected his Messiah and turn his attention to the Church for the time being -- because his plan was foiled?
As far as the 400 or 430 years in Egypt is concerned, I'm not a rigid literalist when it comes to all numbers. Numbers are often used in scripture in a figurative sense. Many numbers actually have theological significance, e.g. 3, 4, 7, 10, 12 or their multiples or sums. (A very good example of what I have just stated can be seen in the 70 years of the Babylonian captivity of not only Judah but of many nations, if you read Jeremiah carefully. So did all these nations and Judah get carried off into Babylon on the same day and released on the same day!? Even Judah was exiled to Babylon in stages, as likely were the other nations! It's impossible to know predcisely how many hears the nations and Judah were in exile!) Since I don't have the time or inclination to delve into this particular issue I will simply refer you to the link below to read or not read, as you wish. It provides alternative explanations to the apparent contradiction.
https://jewishbelief.com/210-to-430-how-long-were-the-israelites-in-egypt/
With respect to God "grieving" or "lamenting" over the creation he made because mankind rebelled against Him, this is anthropomorphic language meant to convey God's heart. Again, his destruction of the antediluvian world was his strange or alien work that did not please him -- because this is not what God desired to do -- but He had to judge the world because his holy nature required him to do so. God cannot act contrary to his essence! God's eyes are too pure to look upon evil (Hab 1:13), let alone for him to tolerate or forbear with it indefintiely.
As I pointed out a couple of weeks or so on this thread, we mere mortals with our finite minds have strong tendency to view redemptive history (which was planned by God in eternity) on just the horizontal level -- as "everything under the sun", which such a limited view can only serve to also skew our view of the majesty, wisdom, power and glory of God. We can never see the whole picture because of our finiteness. Yet, God in eternity in an instant saw every single, minute detail of his plan, and how each and every human being fits into his grand, intricate redemptive mosaic. We know, for example, that God's creation was "very good" and that God intended for man to co-rule with him to subdue the earth, expand the glory of Eden and to fill the world with humans. Instead...Adam rebelled against his Creator.
God plan failed, did it? Not hardly! Whether we view the Fall as occurring by God's decretive will or his permissive will, we can be certain that it came to past because it would still bring glory to God, because he thought it would be better for mankind to have the knowledge of Good and Evil, rather that not, and because in his infinite wisdom he can turn Evil into Good. What God intended 6,000 or 10,000 years ago, or whenever it was that this universe came into existence, will most assuredly come to past, according to the Book of Revelation and a large number of OT prophecies, as well. This earth will be restored to its Edenic Glory -- PLUS! What God intended in eternity will come to past in temporal reality when Christ returns. So many Christians, sadly, fail to understand three essential facts about God: The first is that all these many thousands of years -- even if they turn out to be tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of years are less than a blip on God's radar (2 Pet 3:8); for eternity is timeless. The second thing many of us seem to be prone to forget is that God doesn't think like we do, nor are his ways like ours (Isa 55:8-9). And the third is that God will most certainly accomplish all that he planned in eternity (Isa 55:10-11).
It saddens me to learn, sir, that you,. evidently, have a pretty low view of the majesty and glory and power and wisdom of God. But I have found that this is not unusual for those whose theology is Non-Reformed; for NR theology also extends to Eschatology, which is inextricably entwined with Soteriology and all the other branches of theology, as well.
I've heard that before many times, but nobody has been able to enlighten me about this mysterious third position. If such a position existed, the Church would have united 500 years ago.
There are two main camps in the Church. 1. Man centered gospel, which claims that salvation is by works that's the (Armininian) camp. 2. God centered gospel, which claims that we are saved by grace, and that not of ourselves.
I suppose you believe that salvation is a team effort, where Jesus needs you to complete the atonement, because He failed to Finnish the job. I would love to hear about this third position you guys keep pushing but never sharing, with anyone. Is it the teaching of some kind of secret society?
There are two main camps in the Church. 1. Man centered gospel, which claims that salvation is by works that's the (Armininian) camp. 2. God centered gospel, which claims that we are saved by grace, and that not of ourselves.
I suppose you believe that salvation is a team effort, where Jesus needs you to complete the atonement, because He failed to Finnish the job. I would love to hear about this third position you guys keep pushing but never sharing, with anyone. Is it the teaching of some kind of secret society?