The Error of KJV-Onlyism

[jamessb]

Look, we are agreed that the number of the beast is 666.
People who are not even Christian are aware of this fact.

But on the other part you are failing to grasp what I am trying to say.
You can say 666 is the number of man but this is in the sense that man’s number 6 being repeated three times.
Imagine if an early day Christian made a perfect copy of the New Testament originals that God endorsed. Along with the originals: This would not be two entirely different New Testaments that were foreign or different to each other. In essence, it would only be one New Testament that Christians are to follow. The NT originals and this perfect copy of the NT would be mirror reflections of each other. So in this case, they both could be referred to as the one New Covenant (With one being the original, and the other a perfect copy). But they are not entirely different in the sense to say they are two entirely different New Testaments just because there are two physical versions of them. It’s like seeing a mirror reflection of yourself. There is technically only one ”you” but a mirror makes it appear like there are more.

Imagine if a Pastor had three New Testament Bibles on his podium and he told the church in his speech that we are to follow only one New Covenant or New Testament as he touched these bibles. Technically there is only one New Covenant even though there may be mirror reflections or duplicates representing that one true teaching given to God’s people throughout time in the form of Scripture.

Man was created on day 6 (Genesis 1:27).
Man was given six days to work (Exodus 20:9, Exodus 31:5).
Six Cities of Refuge: In Joshua 20:7-9, six cities were designated as cities of refuge where someone who accidentally killed another person could flee for protection. These cities were provided for the safety of individuals, highlighting the concern for human life.
Think. God told Joshua to march around Jericho seven times and not six times.
Why? Because six is the number of man, and seven is God’s number.
God took down the walls of Jericho and it was not the might of man.

I know you don’t believe any of this, but facts are facts.
You can do whatever you want with those facts.
They exist nonetheless.



So is Revelation 13:18 telling you the reader (if you have understanding) to count a specific number? Yes, or no?
Is that voodoo numerology? Yes, or no?
Why is Revelation 13:18 telling you to count a specific number if it already gives you the answer?
This is where you cannot answer because you don’t have understanding to count in light of what Revelation 13:18 teaches.



First, nowhere I was I referring to multiplication of 6 x 3. 2nd graders know how to do multiplication in basic Math. So don’t assume that is what I was talking about.

Second, here is what Perplexity says.

Yes, saying that 666 is a multiple of 6 threes is correct. In the context of the number 666, it can be viewed as a multiple of 6 threes, which emphasizes the significance of the number in relation to imperfection and incompleteness. The repetition of six three times in 666 symbolizes the completeness of sinful incompleteness found in the beast, highlighting imperfection despite appearing to strive for divine perfection[3][4]. This interpretation aligns with the symbolic nature of numbers in Revelation and their figurative significance rather than a literal gematria calculation[1].

Source:
https://www.perplexity.ai/search/If-I-say-q.rSh1ppSaWoLXsrjfuP0g



So you are of the view that Christians for hundreds of years were using a corrupt Bible?
Two Textus Receptus Bible translators died giving us the line we have that leads to the KJV.
They died for nothing? What about all the great revivals that happened involving the KJV? Just forget about all that?
What about the black abolitionists who used the KJV to help end slavery in this country? Just forget about all that?
They had a corrupt Bible and so they were wrong? What kind of good fruit have the Modern Bibles produced? I will tell you.
Confusion, and lots of money lost buying multiple versions of the same Bible even. Your NIV is not the same as your later NIV and even your side has complained about the gender inclusive language within it. No doubt to fit the Leftist agenda.



Uh, sorry. You cannot play the same card I gave to you. I believe in one Bible and not many like you that say conflicting things. You don’t have any standard or any one Bible that you believe is God’s Holy Word. You get to pick and choose whatever reading you feel is best. I don’t have that luxury. So sorry. You cannot make the same claim that I have said to you before. It doesn’t apply here.



So now you are a mind reader? You have no idea of my motivations when I read Scripture. But just to fill you in, I believe in letting the Bible speak for itself. One Bible and not many bibles like you believe.



You don’t have a Bible (singular). You don’t believe any Bible is the perfect, inerrant, inspired words of God that you can holds in your hands.



Again, what is Revelation 13:18 telling you or the reader who has understanding to do?
Is it wrong of God to give you or the reader who has understanding to count the number of the beast to figure out his number?
So a number is attached to a specific person. There is a number and it has a meaning attached to it. Is this voodoo numerology?



Careful now. If it is in the Bible as taught in the Bible (Revelation 13:18), then you would be insulting God’s instruction to you and claiming it as evil. This would not sit well with you at the Judgment of Christ if you continue to do so.



In your mind it does not exist because you don’t understand what the Scriptures are teaching on this matter.
However, it is good thing your understanding does not determine reality.



It is a logical deduction that it isn’t made out of green cheese based on the observable data.
I don’t know the Earth is round, but I do know that it is round or a sphere based on the data we are given.



And you don’t think I believe you are being illogical and irrational?
I believe you are being illogical and irrational for not believing in one Bible that you can hold in your hands and just believe it without question. To suggest that the Bible has errors in it is to become your own authority.

I am indeed of the view that Christians for hundreds of years have been using using a corrupt Bible! I have news for you: the King James translation is not (and never has been) a perfect Bible. Every Bible is a translation of three different ancient languages, with sources that don't always agree. Even your beloved KJV has been modified over time, so which version was/is perfect??? And why aren't the others perfect?

The Hebrew Bible was composed over a long span of time, from the ninth to the fifth century B.C.E. and the ancient Hebrew scrolls have no vowels? So the translator has to guess about which vowels to add. It wasn't until the 10th Century CE that the Masoretes added vowels to the Hebrew, so the gap between the latest Hebrew "books" and the addition of vowels was 1500 years. And they had to give their best guess about what was correct. Hopefully you now know something you previously didn't, but I'm under no illusion that you will modify your mistaken thinking.

It is a waste of time reading your posts; you are being illogical and irrational, as usual. But I have nothing better to do at the moment and I wanted a good laugh. 8^)

 

[glf]

I consider the textus receptus to be the only authorized version by the Lord.

 

[jamessb]

I consider the textus receptus to be the only authorized version by the Lord.

Well, good for you. What is the reasoning behind your statement?

 

[Dino246]

Anyway, is it "numerolatry" to count the number of the beast and understand that it is the number of a man?

It is if you already have learned to which man the numbers refer but keep on playing with them for some other reason.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I consider the textus receptus to be the only authorized version by the Lord.

It didn't even exist until the 1500's. Erasmus had no access to anything original and was forced to use translations in different languages from the original text Language. How is your comment even possible knowing it's not even close to the "originals" we have in archive?

 

[Dino246]

I consider the textus receptus to be the only authorized version by the Lord.

Interesting. Are you aware that the Textus Receptus did not exist before about 1515, and was not called by that name until about 1632?

 

[Cameron143]

Use whatever version you like. Most people use the textus myselfus anyway.

 

[glf]

Well, good for you. What is the reasoning behind your statement?

It's true that it can't be the original as the original was individual epistles written in differing years of which we only have copies of copies, but I suspect it is the best compilation of those earliest copies. I have to give preference to the Greek as the Greek is the original language of new testament scripture. There is a huge difference between the Greek language and English, such as two verb forms not found in English. Also, endings of nouns agree with their corresponding verb and adjective endings, making their placement in a sentence useful for emphasis among other things.
The authors of textus Sinaiticus and the Alexandrian codex are the same two scholars and if one reads their known correspondence, and based upon their doctrinal statements, one can't help but hold their work in low regard. I even suspect that their two discoveries are made just to add weight to their doctrinal bias.

 

[fredoheaven]

Vowel points were invented around 600 AD or the second half of the 1st millennium AD and finally settled in the 11 Ce. AD. Some have pointed to the beginning of around 500 AD as mentioned by Thomas Ross. On the side of the history of the vowel point, the Catholics would always criticize this view of vowel pointing in their assertion of Latin that somehow it was regarded to later of around 900 to 960AD. A good article by Thomas Ross about vowel points is a good start to read. Another good read is the link below.

Even Lightfoot believed in the vowel pointing system and said “Some there be that think the vowels of the Hebrew, were not invented for many years after Christ. Which to mee seemeth to be all one, as to deny sinews to a body: or to keep an Infant unswadled, and to suffer him to turn and bend any way till he grow out of fashion. For mine own satisfaction I am fully resolved, that the Letters and Vowels of the Hebrew were as the Soul and Body in a Child, knit together at their con∣ception and beginning: and that they had both one Author.”

Bill Mounce says of Hebrew Vowels, “You might be surprised to learn that originally the Hebrew language had no written system of vowels. This does not mean, however, that Hebrew vowels did not exist. While they did not exist in written form, they had always been present in the spoken form of the language…”

https://hebrew.billmounce.com/BBH.1st.02.pdf


https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A48431.0001.001/1:185?rgn=div1;view=fulltext

https://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_Two/Introduction/introduction.html

The most widespread system, and the only one still used to a significant degree today, was created by the Masoretes of Tiberias in the second half of the first millennium AD in the Land of Israel (see Masoretic Text, Tiberian Hebrew). Text written with niqqud is called ktiv menuqad.

These ornaments of the letters con-sisting of signs, points and strokes, partly below, partly above, partly with text were the work of the so-called Massorites, and our text is therefore called Massoretic text. The preparation of the Massoretic, or standard text, was comenced at a very early period and was finally settled in the eleventh century thus it happens that all extant MSS. and printed editions present one…

The Vowel Points Controversy in XVI and XVII by B. Pick

https://www.jstor.org/stable/527305?seq=1

Thomas Ross Article on Vowel points.

https://faithsaves.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/VowelPointPaper.pdf

https://books.google.com.ph/books?i...ec=frontcover&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[jamessb]

Look, we are agreed that the number of the beast is 666.
People who are not even Christian are aware of this fact.

But on the other part you are failing to grasp what I am trying to say.
You can say 666 is the number of man but this is in the sense that man’s number 6 being repeated three times.
Imagine if an early day Christian made a perfect copy of the New Testament originals that God endorsed. Along with the originals: This would not be two entirely different New Testaments that were foreign or different to each other. In essence, it would only be one New Testament that Christians are to follow. The NT originals and this perfect copy of the NT would be mirror reflections of each other. So in this case, they both could be referred to as the one New Covenant (With one being the original, and the other a perfect copy). But they are not entirely different in the sense to say they are two entirely different New Testaments just because there are two physical versions of them. It’s like seeing a mirror reflection of yourself. There is technically only one ”you” but a mirror makes it appear like there are more.

Imagine if a Pastor had three New Testament Bibles on his podium and he told the church in his speech that we are to follow only one New Covenant or New Testament as he touched these bibles. Technically there is only one New Covenant even though there may be mirror reflections or duplicates representing that one true teaching given to God’s people throughout time in the form of Scripture.

Man was created on day 6 (Genesis 1:27).
Man was given six days to work (Exodus 20:9, Exodus 31:5).
Six Cities of Refuge: In Joshua 20:7-9, six cities were designated as cities of refuge where someone who accidentally killed another person could flee for protection. These cities were provided for the safety of individuals, highlighting the concern for human life.
Think. God told Joshua to march around Jericho seven times and not six times.
Why? Because six is the number of man, and seven is God’s number.
God took down the walls of Jericho and it was not the might of man.

I know you don’t believe any of this, but facts are facts.
You can do whatever you want with those facts.
They exist nonetheless.



So is Revelation 13:18 telling you the reader (if you have understanding) to count a specific number? Yes, or no?
Is that voodoo numerology? Yes, or no?
Why is Revelation 13:18 telling you to count a specific number if it already gives you the answer?
This is where you cannot answer because you don’t have understanding to count in light of what Revelation 13:18 teaches.



First, nowhere I was I referring to multiplication of 6 x 3. 2nd graders know how to do multiplication in basic Math. So don’t assume that is what I was talking about.

Second, here is what Perplexity says.

Yes, saying that 666 is a multiple of 6 threes is correct. In the context of the number 666, it can be viewed as a multiple of 6 threes, which emphasizes the significance of the number in relation to imperfection and incompleteness. The repetition of six three times in 666 symbolizes the completeness of sinful incompleteness found in the beast, highlighting imperfection despite appearing to strive for divine perfection[3][4]. This interpretation aligns with the symbolic nature of numbers in Revelation and their figurative significance rather than a literal gematria calculation[1].

Source:
https://www.perplexity.ai/search/If-I-say-q.rSh1ppSaWoLXsrjfuP0g



So you are of the view that Christians for hundreds of years were using a corrupt Bible?
Two Textus Receptus Bible translators died giving us the line we have that leads to the KJV.
They died for nothing? What about all the great revivals that happened involving the KJV? Just forget about all that?
What about the black abolitionists who used the KJV to help end slavery in this country? Just forget about all that?
They had a corrupt Bible and so they were wrong? What kind of good fruit have the Modern Bibles produced? I will tell you.
Confusion, and lots of money lost buying multiple versions of the same Bible even. Your NIV is not the same as your later NIV and even your side has complained about the gender inclusive language within it. No doubt to fit the Leftist agenda.



Uh, sorry. You cannot play the same card I gave to you. I believe in one Bible and not many like you that say conflicting things. You don’t have any standard or any one Bible that you believe is God’s Holy Word. You get to pick and choose whatever reading you feel is best. I don’t have that luxury. So sorry. You cannot make the same claim that I have said to you before. It doesn’t apply here.



So now you are a mind reader? You have no idea of my motivations when I read Scripture. But just to fill you in, I believe in letting the Bible speak for itself. One Bible and not many bibles like you believe.



You don’t have a Bible (singular). You don’t believe any Bible is the perfect, inerrant, inspired words of God that you can holds in your hands.



Again, what is Revelation 13:18 telling you or the reader who has understanding to do?
Is it wrong of God to give you or the reader who has understanding to count the number of the beast to figure out his number?
So a number is attached to a specific person. There is a number and it has a meaning attached to it. Is this voodoo numerology?



Careful now. If it is in the Bible as taught in the Bible (Revelation 13:18), then you would be insulting God’s instruction to you and claiming it as evil. This would not sit well with you at the Judgment of Christ if you continue to do so.



In your mind it does not exist because you don’t understand what the Scriptures are teaching on this matter.
However, it is good thing your understanding does not determine reality.



It is a logical deduction that it isn’t made out of green cheese based on the observable data.
I don’t know the Earth is round, but I do know that it is round or a sphere based on the data we are given.



And you don’t think I believe you are being illogical and irrational?
I believe you are being illogical and irrational for not believing in one Bible that you can hold in your hands and just believe it without question. To suggest that the Bible has errors in it is to become your own authority.

When you write nonsense like "You don’t have a Bible (singular)." Is that a problem? I own quite a few Bibles. I don't slavish adhere to one single (antiquated) translation.

and "You don’t believe any Bible is the perfect, inerrant, inspired words of God that you can holds in your hands. you are just proving that your mind is closed. I don't know why that is, but I feel very sorry for you.

Have you ever been to a synagogue? At the front of the room there is an arc containing the Torah. To Jews, it is the Word of God. During the service, it is removed from the arc and paraded around, allowing the attendees to touch (and kiss) it.

They worship a written "book", just like you, instead of acknowledging that the Bible.

John was entirely correct when he wrote "You study the scriptures thoroughly because you think in them you possess eternal life, and it is these same scriptures that testify about me". You have the same attitude! You glorify a book!!!

 

[jamessb]

continuing on...

You actually condemn every other translation! Even though the words are different, they contain the same message as your King James translation. But you are too blind to see that. You "nit pick"; "You strain out a gnat yet swallow a camel!" (Matthew 23:24)

Why is it impossible for you to recognize the value of other Bibles??? THEY ALL CONTAIN THE SAME MESSAGE!!! Why is your Pharisaic mind so closed???

 

[jamessb]

I worship God, not a book! Jesus, when He was on Earth as a man, was the only perfect being. I worship God and His Son (via the Holy Spirit). Unlike yourself, I do not worship a man-made book.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Interesting. Are you aware that the Textus Receptus did not exist before about 1515, and was not called by that name until about 1632?

While the Textus Receptus in printed form came into existence after the invention of printing, and is also connected with the Reformation through Erasmus, that does not change THE FACT that the traditional text of the New Testament existed since the Bible was completed. And the traditional text represents the majority of existing manuscripts, and is also found in the lectionaries of the Greek Orthodox Church (which are an important witness to this text). Many translations came into existence between the 2nd and 16th centuries, and they too are important witnesses.

Had Westcott & Hort not had their own destructive agenda, the updated revision of the Bible in the late 19th century would have continued to resemble the KJB of 1611, which is based upon the traditional text and the Textus Receptus. In fact the Church of England at that time had given clear instructions to the revision committee to make on changes which were absolutely necessary.

 

[PaulThomson]

Jude 3:4 says to earnestly 'contend for the faith once delivered to the saints.'

When the apostles passed on the teachings of Jesus and their own teachings as led by the Spirit, and when their teachings were written down in gospels and epistles, they did not write them in Late Modern English. They wrote in Greek.

There are some people who teach basically that the King James Bible is word-for-word inspired. That would require basically the canon of scripture to be open until 1611, turning translators into something like inspired scripture writers.

I've seen a variety of arguments for KJV onlyism. One is to point to flaws of other manuscript compilations that some other translation was translated from. But that doesn't prove the KJV is an inerrant inspired translation.

Another argument is that the Bible you have 'in your hand' needs to be inspired. But I could hold an NIV or NASB in my hand, too. That doesn't make it inspired.

Another argument is that there has to be a 'final authority.' It doesn't make any sense to use that to argue that the KJV is an inspired inerrant translation.

Some KJV-onlyist argue that it was the only translation 'authorized' by a king. But Henry VIII had the Great Bible translated, and that doesn't make it an inerrant translation.

Yet another argument is to take a verse about how pure or preserved the word of God is, quoting a verse about it. But those verses existed in the actual original languages scripture was written in, and they show up in the other translations as well. So how is that an argument for KJV onlyism?

The fatal flaw of KJV-onlyism is that it is an ignorant back-woods idea made up by preachers or others some time after the KJV was translated, and not part of 'the faith once delivered to the saints. The apostles did teach it. The Bible doesn't teach it. People got saved through believing the word of God before King James was born.

The KJV is based on the stream oc manuscripts represented by 99% of surviving manuscripts. Most modern bibles ate based on a Greek text compiled by two spiritualists and based on aberrant anomalous hignly amended manuscripts. So the KJV has more credibility on those grounds.

Howevet, the KJV is mistranslated on places imo.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

I am indeed of the view that Christians for hundreds of years have been using using a corrupt Bible!

God’s Word says Scripture cannot be broken (John 10:35); It is: “incorruptible...the word of God...” (1 Peter 1:23).

I have news for you: the King James translation is not (and never has been) a perfect Bible.

“Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.” (Titus 1:15).

Every Bible is a translation of three different ancient languages, with sources that don't always agree.

“…the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.” (1 Corinthians 1:25).

Even your beloved KJV has been modified over time, so which version was/is perfect???

The Pure Cambridge KJV Edition (circa. 1900) (by A.W. Pollard). This is the KJV at Biblehub.com, and it is available to pick at up bookstores (like Amazon) via by Holman Publishers.

And why aren't the others perfect?

Jesus was being perfected by His obedience by the things which He suffered (See: Hebrews 5:8-9). It does not imply incorrectness by any means. While Psalms 12:6 has a primary meaning, it also has a prophetic one. In other words, the words of the Lord are pure words, purified seven times. So the Word was purified with the seven MAJOR KJB editions.

The Hebrew Bible was composed over a long span of time, from the ninth to the fifth century B.C.E. and the ancient Hebrew scrolls have no vowels? So the translator has to guess about which vowels to add. It wasn't until the 10th Century CE that the Masoretes added vowels to the Hebrew, so the gap between the latest Hebrew "books" and the addition of vowels was 1500 years. And they had to give their best guess about what was correct.

“….when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.” (1 Thessalonians 2:13).

Hopefully you now know something you previously didn't,

While you may be correct on certain things, I would triple check anything that you say because you don’t fact-check anything. You appear to just blindly trust the Modern Scholar today and do not really fact-check history or the Bible itself to see what they say is true.

It is a waste of time reading your posts;

Because it does not fit your make belief narrative. You have not answered all of my questions that refutes your wrong beliefs.

you are being illogical and irrational, as usual.

Only from the perspective of the Modern Scholar’s mind who simply does not just plainly read the Bible like a child.

But I have nothing better to do at the moment and I wanted a good laugh. 8^)

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” (Galatians 5:22-23).

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

The KJV is based on the stream oc manuscripts represented by 99% of surviving manuscripts. Most modern bibles ate based on a Greek text compiled by two spiritualists and based on aberrant anomalous hignly amended manuscripts. So the KJV has more credibility on those grounds.

Howevet, the KJV is mistranslated on places imo.

One would have to have a perfect standard by which to compare it to in order to claim error. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

I worship God, not a book! Jesus, when He was on Earth as a man, was the only perfect being. I worship God and His Son (via the Holy Spirit). Unlike yourself, I do not worship a man-made book.

This is simply a false accusation. Nobody here is claiming to bow down to a book and neither do they regard the Bible as if it was God Himself. The Bible represents the mind or thoughts of God. But you can attack His thoughts or what is expressed on His mind if you like. I wouldn’t do that because I care what God thinks.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

Westcott & Hort

Sounds like calvinists started a christian pop band

 

[Nehemiah6]

Sounds like calvinists started a christian pop band

Sounds like there is no connection whatsoever. Not sure how you came up with this doozy.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

Well, they claim Westcott & Hort were reformers who tinkered with original texts so I thought maybe some modern day reformed people that wanted to start a band might call it Westcott & Hort

One of their songs might say something like"we're elect and you're not so you can be saved!"