Women Pastors

[posthuman]

The Bible makes lots of distinctions. Why relate it to salvation?

you could say Christ is relating it to salvation by saying let the children come to Him.
coming to Him is being saved; He is Salvation - it's His name

i think Oyster is pointing out that there are such things as children VS. adults, so you see a precedent for the Hebrew idea of barmitvah/batmizvah, and Christ is indicating that children can have faith in Him every bit as much as adults can, when the disciples were thinking children were probably a nuisance to Him and His teaching is only for adults.

 

[Obedience]

Just checking, you'd be surprised how many people read he Bible like it was all literal language. Jesus had to spell out what He meant by born again, because He was asked if it meant going back into the mothers womb

I think what he meant was also about humbles. We must be born again as little children and humbles as little children.

Just like education starts with children.Children go to school to learn knowledge from an early age.If children learn evolution from childhood,Then it is hard for them to accept creationism when they grow up.

 

[oyster67]

The Bible makes lots of distinctions. Why relate it to salvation?

Because it pertains to salvation...

Matthew 18:3
“And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”

 

[posthuman]

Just checking, you'd be surprised how many people read he Bible like it was all literal language. Jesus had to spell out what He meant by born again, because He was asked if it meant going back into the mothers womb

there are 6 things the Jew considered being born again.

Jesus was talking to the most revered rabbi in all of Israel in John 3.it is not a simple conversation - it is at an extremely high level.

Nicodemus is absolutely not an idiot.

Nicodemus isn't unfamiliar with the term of rebirth. he is expressing that he is not eligible for some of the ways he understands it, and he has already undergone all those that he can possibly undergo, but knows it isn't sufficient. in true Jewish fashion, he uses appeal to absurdity to ask Jesus about this.

quoting Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum:

1. When Gentiles converted to Judaism, they were said to be born again. Since Nicodemus was not a Gentile, he could not qualify in this manner.
2. When a man was crowned king, he was said to be born again. Nothing is said about Nicodemus having been of the House of David, and hence, he was not of royal lineage.
3. When a Jewish boy became bar mitzvahed at the age of 13, he was said to be born again. At that age, he subjected himself to the Mosaic Law and became responsible for his own sins. Since Nicodemus was beyond the age of 13, he had already experienced his bar mitzvah.
4. When a Jew married, he was said to be born again. Although nothing is said about Nicodemus’s wife, it has been clearly stated that he was a member of the Sanhedrin. One of the rules for becoming a member of the Sanhedrin was that one must be married, and so we know from this that Nicodemus was married.
5. A fifth way that a Jew could be born again was to be ordained as a rabbi. Since Nicodemus was a Pharisee, he had been ordained as a rabbi and thus had been born again in a third way.
6. The final way to be born again in Judaism was to become the head of a rabbinical school. In verse 10, Jesus said to Nicodemus that he was “the teacher of Israel.” The one who was the head of rabbinical school was always referred to as the teacher of Israel. Hence, Nicodemus was also the head of a rabbinical school

 

[Cameron143]

Are we going to make fuss about the fact that the exact phraseology "AGE OF ACCOUNTABILITY" is not part of KJV English? Let's avoid going down that silly street.

Those verses mention children because of their implicit trust in their parents. Likewise, in salvation and kingdom living, the Christian is to have implicit and absolute faith in their heavenly Father.
I don't believe their age is the subject of their inclusion, but their exhibition of trust that is in view.

 

[Cameron143]

Because it pertains to salvation...

It pertains to the nature of salvation and not it's timing.

 

[Charlie_2024]

2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them
3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me,
6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

It's all about converts.
But Jesus is using a child's blind faith for His example.

Yes Jesus was using the child's blind faith to prove that it's impossible for adults to have that kind of faith. So we know it's impossible, just as being born again is impossible.

The only lesson in all of these teachings of Christ, is that they are all impossible for us to achieve but all things are possible with God. The take away would have to be, we rely on God to transform us because we know it's impossible for us to perform such miracles.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Yes Jesus was using the child's blind faith to prove that it's impossible for adults to have that kind of faith. So we know it's impossible, just as being born again is impossible.

The only lesson in all of these teachings of Christ, is that they are all impossible for us to achieve but all things are possible with God. The take away would have to be, we rely on God to transform us because we know it's impossible for us to perform such miracles.

God does impart the hearer of the Gospel with faith to believe in Him.

 

[Cameron143]

you could say Christ is relating it to salvation by saying let the children come to Him.
coming to Him is being saved; He is Salvation - it's His name

i think Oyster is pointing out that there are such things as children VS. adults, so you see a precedent for the Hebrew idea of barmitvah/batmizvah, and Christ is indicating that children can have faith in Him every bit as much as adults can, when the disciples were thinking children were probably a nuisance to Him and His teaching is only for adults.

The teachings are for all. But the distinction Jesus is making is the nature of salvation, and not at what point mankind becomes accountable. If anything, the implication would be that children are accountable, if that were indeed the point He is emphasizing.
It clearly says...as children, which makes it a comparison.

 

[Charlie_2024]

Yet we have all encountered immature adults.

Absolutely, the world is full of immature adults. But none would qualify to become a member of a Bible based Church. I'm sure they may be received into the seeker friendly new age Churches, but that's a different topic

 

[posthuman]

2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them
3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me,
6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

It's all about converts.
But Jesus is using a child's blind faith for His example.

i don't see "blind faith" mentioned in the text, but i do see humility...

and an implicit warning not to refuse to receive children in His name....

 

[Charlie_2024]

The point of the story with the children is not so much to teach about humility, but the nature of kingdom living. Children are implicitly trusting in parents who have cared for them and taught them. They believe their parents do what is in their best interest and place complete confidence in them.
Likewise, those who live in the kingdom of God are to place complete and total trust in their heavenly Father. This is what it means that the just shall walk by faith. True kingdom living implicitly trusts their care to God recognizing that He cannot lie or fail and will always be faithful to His children.

All of that is true and if we have put our trust in the Lord, He will give us the gift of humility. Since we can't enter His Kingdom without it

 

[posthuman]

Absolutely, the world is full of immature adults. But none would qualify to become a member of a Bible based Church. I'm sure they may be received into the seeker friendly new age Churches, but that's a different topic

 

[Charlie_2024]

if you refuse Christ as our example, the go to Job 32.

Elihu is a youth, and he is the only person in the entire book God does not rebuke for speaking foolishly.

how can this be?
why is this?
Who is Elihu prefiguring?

Luke 2:42, friend. a little child shall lead them.
Isaiah 11:6 ≅ Job 32:8

The only reason I can see, why God didn't rebuke him was the fact that he was just a child and not accountable for his actions as yet.

 

[oyster67]

Those verses mention children because of their implicit trust in their parents.

Yes. And perhaps their implicit trust and belief in good and evil. Their hearts have not yet become hardened by pride and rebellion (but it doesn't take long .)

I don't believe their age is the subject of their inclusion, but their exhibition of trust that is in view.

Sure. But the fact remains that Jesus made a distinction.

 

[Cameron143]

All of that is true and if we have put our trust in the Lord, He will give us the gift of humility. Since we can't enter His Kingdom without it

It is both a humble and contrite heart that the Lord does not despise. And God is happy to supply the Godly sorrow that works repentance. But children in Jewish society who rushed upon an adult would have been considered many things, but humble wouldn't have been one of those those things. The central theme is the kingdom of God, and the central element being considered is childlike trust...faith.

 

[oyster67]

It pertains to the nature of salvation and not it's timing.

Sure. Mentally retarded people are probably included for this reason.

 

[posthuman]

The teachings are for all. But the distinction Jesus is making is the nature of salvation, and not at what point mankind becomes accountable. If anything, the implication would be that children are accountable, if that were indeed the point He is emphasizing.
It clearly says...as children, which makes it a comparison.

a child who belligerently refuses to obey his or her parents is to be put to death, under Torah, by all the men of the city together. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

that does sound like accountability.

and then you have this,

Jonah 4:11​

And should I not pity Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than one hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left—and much livestock?​

​

which kind of sounds like not accountable, but they are still to be pitied, and can still be saved..

 

[Cameron143]

Yes. And perhaps their implicit trust and belief in good and evil. Their hearts have not yet become hardened by pride and rebellion (but it doesn't take long .)


Sure. But the fact remains that Jesus made a distinction.

Distinctions between adults and children are made throughout the Bible:

Proverbs...foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child...
Deuteronomy...train up a child...
1st Corinthians 13...when I was a child...

None of this says anything about when a person becomes accountable. They merely relate that a difference exists.

 

[posthuman]

The only reason I can see, why God didn't rebuke him was the fact that he was just a child and not accountable for his actions as yet.

maybe you should go read it again...

the things he says to Job are the same things God says to Job. if what Elihu has to say is worthless it's difficult to explain why God records 6 chapters of his speech and zero rebuke of anything he said, in a book full of back-and-forth speeches and rebuttals.