Predestination is misunderstood...

[Cameron143]

Iran is a sovereign state. England is a sovereign state. Do you think there are any entities within or outside of their jurisdictions that can hinder Iran or England in any way? Why do you think sovereign means unable to be hindered? Does the Bible say anywhere that God gets hindered? I believe it does.

Did you read the verse...He does His will in the armies of heaven and amongst the inhabitants of the earth and none shall stay His hand. God answers to no one and no one can thwart His will. He is the LORD God omnipotent. He has no peers or rivals. This is what people were inferring when they said your god was too small. Your understanding of God renders Him less than He is.

 

[Cameron143]

If I pay a debt on behalf of someone with the proviso that it will obtain to the debtor if they do X, and the court can keep the money if they don't do X, why would it be unjust for the court to keep the money and yet not pardon the debtor who does not do X?

Under the terms of your agreement, there is no problem. But that wasn't the terms of the agreement between the Father and the Son. All that the Father had given Him would come to Him. That was the agreement.
The first covenant was between God and men. The new covenant is between God the Father and God the Son. No way for men to mess it up.

 

[Cameron143]

Cameron143 said:
Every person you mentioned had a relationship with God except Cain. What were they like before the grace of God came to them?

They were dead in their trespasses and sins. They were as the children of wrath living opposed to God and dominated by the evil one.

 

[sawdust]

Maybe you need to be more interested in increasing your English vocabulary.
Propositions: things asserted to be facts or true.

You're losing me with your talk. Are you suggesting we cannot know the word of God is true until we prove it true?

 

[PaulThomson]

Did you read the verse...He does His will in the armies of heaven and amongst the inhabitants of the earth and none shall stay His hand. God answers to no one and no one can thwart His will. He is the LORD God omnipotent. He has no peers or rivals. This is what people were inferring when they said your god was too small. Your understanding of God renders Him less than He is.

Did you read the context of the verse? Does it say that Nebuchadnezzer was prophesying?
34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.

37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

Is everything everyone says about God in the Bible true and precise? The king was warned what would happen if he did not repent. It happened exactly as he was warned. As a king over avast empire who made decrees that were almost always carried out, what would he attribute to the God who imposed a predicted decreed penalty on him, the head of the empire? He would conclude -

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

However, there are many times in scripture that God's decrees not carried out because men do not cooperate. In fact, Nebuchadnezzar himself had gone against God's decree to stop sinning. Saul went against God's decree and spared the best of the flocks and king Agag. Adam went against the decree of God and ate of the forbidden fruit.

 

[PaulThomson]

Are you referring to the Latin Vulgate?

How close to the original letters can you get, fourth century?

The Vulgate is not a Catholic Bible.

Those translations that arrived a thousand years later, hmmmmm!

The text of the NT was written by the poor on papyrus, so the originals and earlier copies disintegrated. The educated Alexandrian theologians who tweaked the NT to more easily accommodate their gnosticism. wrote on expensive vellum which survived longer and therefore some extant copies survive from earlier times than the surviving copies from the Asia Minor stream. One cannot read authenticity into the production age of manuscripts.

 

[PaulThomson]

You're losing me with your talk. Are you suggesting we cannot know the word of God is true until we prove it true?

We can begin with a presupposition that what the the word of God says is true. We should not presuppose that what commentator X or Y claims the word of God is saying or teaching is correct. We should read the actual words: acknowledging what they do actually say and what they don't actually say. And then we should consider all the possible things that what they do say could mean, and not narrow that down by imposing limitations based on presuppositions gleaned from commentaries but not plainly stated anywhere in the Bible.

 

[PaulThomson]

i didn't say it was not good. I said it appeared good to man as we can only see the outward works. We can't see your heart's intentions and motivation to, conclude that it was a good work. For all we know, you may have been visiting her to persuade her to include you in her will. We just don't know.
Jesus said, "if a man looks upon a woman with lust, he has already committed adultery in his heart". So that man is guilty in Gods view, while the men around him didn't even see his lust.
God did say that there are none righteous, no not one. That tells me our best works are as filthy rags in His sight, let alone our wicked works.

So, it wasn't good? Or it wasn't perfect.

 

[PaulThomson]

i didn't say it was not good. I said it appeared good to man as we can only see the outward works. We can't see your heart's intentions and motivation to, conclude that it was a good work. For all we know, you may have been visiting her to persuade her to include you in her will. We just don't know.
Jesus said, "if a man looks upon a woman with lust, he has already committed adultery in his heart". So that man is guilty in Gods view, while the men around him didn't even see his lust.
God did say that there are none righteous, no not one. That tells me our best works are as filthy rags in His sight, let alone our wicked works.

So, it wasn't good? Or it wasn't perfect.

 

[PaulThomson]

God is good and merciful to all. Every transaction between God and man is an exercise of grace.

Not under exhaustive divine pre-determinism.

 

[PaulThomson]

View attachment 261548

I see only scripture references you claim mention sovereignty. Post an actual text that mentions sovereignty as exhaustive divine pre-determinists image it.

 

[PaulThomson]

i didn't say it was not good. I said it appeared good to man as we can only see the outward works. We can't see your heart's intentions and motivation to, conclude that it was a good work. For all we know, you may have been visiting her to persuade her to include you in her will. We just don't know.
Jesus said, "if a man looks upon a woman with lust, he has already committed adultery in his heart". So that man is guilty in Gods view, while the men around him didn't even see his lust.
God did say that there are none righteous, no not one. That tells me our best works are as filthy rags in His sight, let alone our wicked works.

So, it wasn't good? Or it wasn't perfect?

 

[PaulThomson]

They were dead in their trespasses and sins. They were as the children of wrath living opposed to God and dominated by the evil one.

I don't think I am going to get honest dialogue from you. Have a grace day.

 

[PaulThomson]

The definition of the image of God according to Scripture is true righteousness, holiness and an intimate knowledge of God (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10)

The definition of the image of God according to scripture is Christlikeness Col. 1 :15
15 Who is the image of the invisible God,

Heb. 1:1-3
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,

 

[sawdust]

We can begin with a presupposition that what the the word of God says is true. We should not presuppose that what commentator X or Y claims the word of God is saying or teaching is correct. We should read the actual words: acknowledging what they do actually say and what they don't actually say. And then we should consider all the possible things that what they do say could mean, and not narrow that down by imposing limitations based on presuppositions gleaned from commentaries but not plainly stated anywhere in the Bible.

Ok, I think I see what your saying and while I don't exactly disagree, you can end up doing nothing at all except wavering between one interpretation and the next. Eventually you have to apply the meaning even if your interpretation is wrong. Better to try, fall, be corrected and try again than do nothing except brainstorm.

My 5 cents worth.

 

[PaulThomson]

in is not simply what a person does but what a person is. All sin because they are conceived in sin (Psa 51:5) and go astray as soon as they are born (Psa 58:3) but what is more important to realise is who sin is committed against and everything that a man does that does not flow from faith to God is SIN (Rom 14:23) and that is why you need the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

I was conceived in a motel. Does that mean I have had a motel in me since conception? Give me a break!!

Ps 58:3 does not say we go astray as soon as we are born. First of all that contradicts what you claimed for Ps 51:5. You claimed that means we are sin from conception. Now it's from birth? And speaking lies from birth?

The Hebrew actually says, "Have become estranged the wicked since the womb. Have gone astray since birth these speaking lies. "Rather than saying that we were astray in the womb or at birth or immediately after birth, it is implying that we were born innocent and at some time after birth we went astray and became liars. Quite the opposite of the exhaustive divine predeterminists' spin on the text to marshal it in defense of their error.

 

[PaulThomson]

Ok, I think I see what your saying and while I don't exactly disagree, you can end up doing nothing at all except wavering between one interpretation and the next. Eventually you have to apply the meaning even if your interpretation is wrong. Better to try, fall, be corrected and try again than do nothing except brainstorm.

My 5 cents worth.

We can be certain of what scripture actually says. The problem for exhaustive divine pre-determinists is that what they claim the Bible is teaching the Bible does not even say. They don't start with determining what the Bible says. They start with what their systematic theologians tell them they should find, and impose that on parts of verses and verses wrested out of context.

 

[Charlie_2024]

So, it wasn't good? Or it wasn't perfect.

This is a tricky question so it's not a yes or no answer. The question has two different answers, because it all depends on who's perspective we look at it from.

From God's perspective it wasn't good or perfect.

From the human perspective, we may say it was a good deed but we can't be sure because we can't see your hidden motive. So it definitely wasn't perfect either.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

But none of those things have any bearing on salvation. Being rich does not give you an advantage so your point is moot. When it comes to salvation God is fair. He judges only on what is given and He gives freely to all making His rain and sun to fall upon people equally. Everyone can know God exists and is eternal, powerful and GOD. How they respond to that initial information will determine how much God will give them. He doesn't throw pearls before swine.

It would be interesting to know your interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14 & Psalms 53:2-3.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

That was based upon wishing you a Good Day. For the Day of Evaluation.
That's when all believers stand before the Lord... 1 Cor 3:11-15
When we are evaluated to see if our deeds were of God, or our own way of seeing things.

With that in mind?

Wishing you a good Day.

God judges his children as they sojourn here in this world, by his chastening. They will not be judged at the last day, but are told to come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. (Matt 25:32-34).