Predestination is misunderstood...

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PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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PaulThomson said:
If God will not despise a broken and contrite spirit (Ps. 51:17), do you think God could refuse to regenerate someone who hears the gospel with their natural ears and is sorry for their sins with their natural conscience and puts trust in Jesus as Saviour with their natural faith before they are regenerated?

No,for 2 reasons.
1. They must be born from above.
2. It is an earthly sorrow that only has them considering the consequences to themselves, and not the offense to a holy God. It doesn't rise to the level of biblical contrition. It is a Godly sorrow that works repentance not to be repented of. This to is an action of God on behalf of an individual.
So, when you said -

Cameron143 said:
Total depravity simply means that as a result of the fall, every aspect of man was affected. That is, his heart, mind, and will were all corrupted from their original estate.

- you were fudging the fact that you believe it means total inability, And you seem to believe in double predestination: God deliberately predestines many for destruction by deliberately withholding from them the regeneration you believe they need to believe and be saved.. Or do you reject double predestination.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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He knows the end from the Beginning. So He knows everything.

I am God, and there is none like me,
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done
Your cited text falls well short of expressing the idea that "[God] knows everything."
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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PaulThomson said:
If God will not despise a broken and contrite spirit (Ps. 51:17), do you think God could refuse to regenerate someone who hears the gospel with their natural ears and is sorry for their sins with their natural conscience and puts trust in Jesus as Saviour with their natural faith before they are regenerated?



So, when you said -

Cameron143 said:
Total depravity simply means that as a result of the fall, every aspect of man was affected. That is, his heart, mind, and will were all corrupted from their original estate.

- you were fudging the fact that you believe it means total inability, And you seem to believe in double predestination: God deliberately predestines many for destruction by deliberately withholding from them the regeneration you believe they need to believe and be saved.. Or do you reject double predestination.
I knew when I answered there was a chance that you might construe my words to mean something other than what I intended or mean. Despite that, I answered anyway. Doubtful I will again.
Grace and peace.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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"Using man as a means to get angels to see reality" is what you said.
Even right now its going on as well.

Here is one example......




1 Peter 1:12


It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke
of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you
by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things."


The Greek is more pronounced concerning what the angels are doing even at present...

Even angels have an insatiable desire to bend over and concentrate on these things.'

Angels are being taught by God through observing man's actions and ideas!

Man in his fallen state and redeemed states has been for God the perfect teaching tool to show and teach angels
about attributes concerning angels in regards as to why certain angels have been condemned, and why others are being blessed.


Some theologians call it the resolving of the prehistoric angelic conflict.

grace and peace ..................
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,776
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Your cited text falls well short of expressing the idea that "[God] knows everything."
How could he pay for all your sins 2000 years ago?

If he does not know all things? You could not be saved.

Now multiply that times billions upon billions of sins of the entire world...

grace and peace ...........
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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My apologies as I am on my phone and unable to copy and paste or give the verses while I'm making a post ... I'm technologically challenged while on my phone. I say that because normally I would give the verses with the verse citations...
I use YouVersion on my phone, which allows copying. It's clunky and usually requires more post-editing than I prefer, but it is possible. :)
 
Dec 18, 2023
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You don't need time.
God is the SAME yesterday, today, forever
firstly none of you where willing to say what the suggestion was in genesis 3, which you had umpteen request to do.

It Was someone else who saw the correct suggestion..

That you and all all others knew was there in genesis 3.

And now none if you are willing to discuss the suggestion..

And all your doing is going to other suggestions,
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,815
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I use YouVersion on my phone, which allows copying. It's clunky and usually requires more post-editing than I prefer, but it is possible. :)
Thank you! I may look into that. As it is, performing certain tasks on my phone is impossible, so it would be great to increase what I am able to do...
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,776
407
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PaulThomson said:
If God will not despise a broken and contrite spirit (Ps. 51:17), do you think God could refuse to regenerate someone who hears the gospel with their natural ears and is sorry for their sins with their natural conscience and puts trust in Jesus as Saviour with their natural faith before they are regenerated?
Many Calvinists know of the grief of being a sinner that does take place after regeneration.
But that does not mean we needed regeneration first to be saved.

To know one is a sinner does not require regeneration to know.
The flesh and sinning not even a spiritual issue.
That is where Calvinists have been missing the point.

In contrast to knowing one is a sinner it takes regeneration to be grieved over knowing one is a sinner.
That kind of grieving takes place after regeneration.

So far, Calvinists have been failing to make the distinction between the two states of being.

Any unbeliever can know he is a sinner and turn to Christ to save him.
But that person can not come close to knowing the kind of grieving one has about being a sinner once he is regenerated and the Holy Spirit begins His working on you.

Calvinists confuse the two. Thus thinking one can not turn to Christ unless first regenerated.

grace and peace .....
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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407
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firstly none of you where willing to say what the suggestion was in genesis 3, which you had umpteen request to do.
OK... its true. I have not been willing.

Not willing to say you are spiritually inept in understanding what it says in Genesis 3.
That you are still very dumb about the nature of God.

I just said what others here have been not willing to say.


Feel better now?
 

BillyBob

Active member
Dec 20, 2023
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Texas
God had them walking in the Garden knowing full well what the outcome would be....

The problem some have is they fail to see that God was teaching angels, and using man as a means to get them to see reality.
The teaching below is Williamson's belief on man's free will and how our reasoning was impacted by that fall. I find that there seems to be much truth in what he wrote.


Free Will – G.I. Williamson – liberty vs ability

In his study guide, Williamson does a very good job of explaining that no other system of teaching safeguards true human liberty and responsibility as does the Reformed Faith.

In doing this he says that that we must carefully note what freedom of the will is and what it is not. By free will we mean that man’s will is not coerced. That he is not forced by some external force greater than himself to do something he does not want to do. We mean that man is free to do what he wants to do within the limits of his ability. However, we must carefully note that liberty is not identical with ability. Many people really mean ability when the say liberty. They speak of man being free to do good or evil when they really mean to say that men are able to do good or evil. This is a serious error! The Bible clearly and consistently teaches (1) man is free to do good or evil, that he is at liberty to do either, but (2) that he is able to do only evil because of his fallen condition. The will cannot escape the moral character out of which it comes. If the soul is entirely corrupt so that its knowledge and desire are defective and rotten, it follows that it will ever will to do that which is evil.

Man originally had a sinless personality. He desired only what was good and well-pleasing to God. He was free to do that which was according to his on desire. And because his nature was wholly uncorrupted his desires were only good. He had absolute liberty and also ability to do good. He had no more liberty to do good than has fallen man, but had complete ability which is totally absent in fallen man. With sin’s entrance man lost ability to do good, not liberty. Before the fall, man was at liberty to do either good or evil and he was able to do either. After the fall he remained free to do either good or evil, but was able to do only evil. Now “every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually” (Gen 6:5). He is able to do good only as he is regenerated in order that he may again possess the good heart and will and to do God’s good pleasure (Eph 2:1ff, John 3:3, Phil 2:13).

The regenerate man possesses the same absolute liberty as did Adam before the fall and sinners after the fall. The difference between unregenerate man is one of ability, not liberty. Both are free to do good, but only one is able to do good. And he is able because God the Holy Sprit has given him a new heart (Eph 2:10). Therefore, he has ability to will and do what is good. Yet his ability is not identical with that which Adam originally had. The regenerate man is not yet able to do God’s will perfectly. He does truly delight in the will of God. He does persist in the way of righteousness. Sin cannot prevail in him as it formally did. But sin is present with him (Rom 7:21). The reason for this is that we are in the process of being made holy.

By and by his work in us will be done (with glorification). But even then, man will possess essentially the same liberty that he now has. The difference again, will be in the measure of his ability, not liberty
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,776
407
83
The teaching below is Williamson's belief on man's free will and how our reasoning was impacted by that fall. I find that there seems to be much truth in what he wrote.


Free Will – G.I. Williamson – liberty vs ability

In his study guide, Williamson does a very good job of explaining that no other system of teaching safeguards true human liberty and responsibility as does the Reformed Faith.

In doing this he says that that we must carefully note what freedom of the will is and what it is not. By free will we mean that man’s will is not coerced. That he is not forced by some external force greater than himself to do something he does not want to do. We mean that man is free to do what he wants to do within the limits of his ability. However, we must carefully note that liberty is not identical with ability. Many people really mean ability when the say liberty. They speak of man being free to do good or evil when they really mean to say that men are able to do good or evil. This is a serious error! The Bible clearly and consistently teaches (1) man is free to do good or evil, that he is at liberty to do either, but (2) that he is able to do only evil because of his fallen condition. The will cannot escape the moral character out of which it comes. If the soul is entirely corrupt so that its knowledge and desire are defective and rotten, it follows that it will ever will to do that which is evil.

Man originally had a sinless personality. He desired only what was good and well-pleasing to God. He was free to do that which was according to his on desire. And because his nature was wholly uncorrupted his desires were only good. He had absolute liberty and also ability to do good. He had no more liberty to do good than has fallen man, but had complete ability which is totally absent in fallen man. With sin’s entrance man lost ability to do good, not liberty. Before the fall, man was at liberty to do either good or evil and he was able to do either. After the fall he remained free to do either good or evil, but was able to do only evil. Now “every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually” (Gen 6:5). He is able to do good only as he is regenerated in order that he may again possess the good heart and will and to do God’s good pleasure (Eph 2:1ff, John 3:3, Phil 2:13).

The regenerate man possesses the same absolute liberty as did Adam before the fall and sinners after the fall. The difference between unregenerate man is one of ability, not liberty. Both are free to do good, but only one is able to do good. And he is able because God the Holy Sprit has given him a new heart (Eph 2:10). Therefore, he has ability to will and do what is good. Yet his ability is not identical with that which Adam originally had. The regenerate man is not yet able to do God’s will perfectly. He does truly delight in the will of God. He does persist in the way of righteousness. Sin cannot prevail in him as it formally did. But sin is present with him (Rom 7:21). The reason for this is that we are in the process of being made holy.

By and by his work in us will be done (with glorification). But even then, man will possess essentially the same liberty that he now has. The difference again, will be in the measure of his ability, not liberty
Man now argues over our present fallen state and man having free will or not.

This the real question never answered?

How was it possible for Omniscient God to create men and angels to be having free will?

The Bible contains truth that shows how it was easily done by God.

One needs to understand the two natures of Jesus in the Incarnation
and what we see contained in Philippians 2:6-8 to see how it was done!
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his
own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!


grace and peace .........
 
Dec 18, 2023
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OK... its true. I have not been willing.

Not willing to say you are spiritually inept in understanding what it says in Genesis 3.
That you are still very dumb about the nature of God.

I just said what others here have been not willing to say.


Feel better now?
no your not willing to discuss genesis 3, in the way in which it should be understood.

Because like your friends @Dino and @HeIsHere, you would rather call the correct interpretation of genesis 3 heresy because it goes against your doctrine,

And you don't want to understand predestination and will in any other way either.

Absolutely incredible.
 
Mar 7, 2024
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Regeneration begins while we are hearing the Gospel being preached.

44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.

1. We hear the Gospel
2. Holy Spirit falls on us
3. Regeneration begins

Paul wrote it this way

“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

1. We hear the Gospel
2. We Believed
3. We were Sealed by the Holy Spirit
From mans perspective, he experiences salvation at a particular time in his life. But God is not bound by time and place, He preordained everything from the beginning.
So nothing can happen unless He preordained it to happen, there are no accidents or surprises with God. Everything is exactly as He caused it to be, including those who receive the gift of salvation and those who are left in their sin awaiting judgement.

To suggest that man has some input into his salvation is to deny what God has said about how He saves His elect.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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no your not willing to discuss genesis 3, in the way in which it should be understood.

You still want us to guess what it is you want us to see.
It will not works because you need to try to pull that off with baby Christians who do not yet know Bible doctrine.

You are taking the position of a coward. You want to gather around you ignorant believers to back you up.

Teach it as you see it.

You are hoping some will assume the same erroneous thinking you have, and in effect, vindicate your false doctrine.

Teach us what you believe Genesis 3 is telling us, please?

Use chapter and verse.

Stop playing coy. That is no way to teach the word of God.

grace and truth......
 
Mar 7, 2024
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PaulThomson said:
False dichotomy. Those are not the only two options. Another option is to read the Bible for yourself and just share with others what you see in a passage and listening to them as to what they truly see in it, and comparing perspectives to decide for yourself what the most persuasive message of the passage is so far, and to be open to learning more and perhaps changing opinions. I am neither Arminian nor Calvinist. I don't even know what Arminius taught. I base my understanding of scripture on what the Bible says, not on what some mere man says.



I suppose I should have mentioned trusting the Holy Spirit to guide my reading, thinking and understanding. But I was responding to a post which was dealing only with the alleged theologies of Arminius and Calvin, and did not include the Holy Spirit. I am interested in the perspectives of other bible readers, but I want to see whether their reasons for their perspectives stack up with scripture, or are importing presuppositions that do not derive directly from scripture.
I am not about to hand over my personal relationship with God to someone who is no more or less reliable at interpreting scripture than I am. Aeonous life is a relationship with God and Jesus (John 17:3) not a relationship with some other man and His teaching. I won't be selling my aeonous life for a mess of potage.
That's good if you poses the gift of discernment. Timothy 2:15-16 says

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and [a]idle babblings, for they will [b]increase to more ungodliness.

It's a warning to those who take Gods Word into their own hands and interpret it according to their private views. We live in 2024, everything in thew Bible has been fully explained by our forbears.
If someone comes along claiming to have found something new, then beware of that person. To suggest we have discovered something new God said, which our forbearers missed, is in my opinion disrespectful and misguided at best.

Why should I seek out the private opinion of my local baker, and ignore the teaching of my local Theologian. It just doesn't make anysense.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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firstly none of you where willing to say what the suggestion was in genesis 3, which you had umpteen request to do.

It Was someone else who saw the correct suggestion..

That you and all all others knew was there in genesis 3.

And now none if you are willing to discuss the suggestion..

And all your doing is going to other suggestions,
There was never a correct suggestion it was only your "assumption."

I am willing to discuss because I continue to answer you. We have a literal 6,000+ years of human history of knowledge from the ancient peoples passed down to us. And in the year of 2024, this is first time someone has chosen to go against the word of those ancient peoples and make this claim that you do. So it's a remorseful suggestion to claim we are not open minded here. We have the truth that's been passed down to us so there seems no point in disregarding their word. It's on you to just create a post and explain your position to see if the Holy Spirit quickens our souls and minds to agree.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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From mans perspective, he experiences salvation at a particular time in his life. But God is not bound by time and place, He preordained everything from the beginning.
So nothing can happen unless He preordained it to happen, there are no accidents or surprises with God. Everything is exactly as He caused it to be, including those who receive the gift of salvation and those who are left in their sin awaiting judgement.

To suggest that man has some input into his salvation is to deny what God has said about how He saves His elect.
Those verses are not from man's perspective, they are inspired by the Holy Spirit to confirm what people saw and how they saw it take place.

Luke wrote this some 20+ years after it happened when the Holy Spirit inspired Him what to say.
 
Dec 18, 2023
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There was never a correct suggestion it was only your "assumption."

I am willing to discuss because I continue to answer you. We have a literal 6,000+ years of human history of knowledge from the ancient peoples passed down to us. And in the year of 2024, this is first time someone has chosen to go against the word of those ancient peoples and make this claim that you do. So it's a remorseful suggestion to claim we are not open minded here. We have the truth that's been passed down to us so there seems no point in disregarding their word. It's on you to just create a post and explain your position to see if the Holy Spirit quickens our souls and minds to agree.
Yes there is a correct teaching thay makes everything fit,

But all we see here is confusion.

The fact that God was letting Adam and Eve walk free before the fall in innocence, and the fact that God was letting them be, does not stop God from being all knowing, @Genez and @Dino246 and @HeIsHere accuse of me heresy.

Simply put Adam and Eve where free, walking in eden with God, in his present time. The fact God didn't know what Adam and Eve had done,

Does not stop God from being all knowing. It just mean they where free

So when your ready to discuss genesis 3 correctly,.let me know.