Predestination is misunderstood...

[Thunderrr-mental]

If God wills everything, He is guilty of Adam's (and everyone else's) sin. Do you wish to rethink your position?

What you need to know is how God's knows what you will do next, and not how God would control what you do next.

For instance if Adam adam and Eve lived in the same time as God before the fall, he would not of know what they would do next.

If after the fall God changed his will in Adam and Eve to live out side of his time, say one year behind, then he would be knowing what you or they do next.

But still his will would still be in you.

But it would be an imprisoned will.

 

[Magenta]

Your post with Scripture @Magenta reminds me of this Scripture...

Psalm 53:3
All have turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

Hello Rosemary! Yes, the same message is throughout Scripture... such as we find in Isaiah 64:6-7a, also:

Each of us has become like something unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all wither like
a leaf, and our iniquities carry us away like the wind. No one calls on Your name or strives to take hold of You.

And Job 14:4
Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

No one but God, that is .. We put on the righteousness of Christ... by grace, through faith.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

If God wills everything, He is guilty of Adam's (and everyone else's) sin. Do you wish to rethink your position?

Theres also a verse in genesis that suggests God did not know what adam and eve where going to do next, which suggests adam and eve where living in the same time as God before the fall.

Do you know which verse I'm talking about.

However after the fall it was clear he knew what they where going to do next.

Which also suggests God made his will inside of man live outside of his time after the fall, like say one year behind, enabling God to know what you would do next 😊

 

[Cameron143]

would it be a reasonable to suggest that this will was completely free in man before the fall.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.


James 4:15 Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.”

1 John 5:14 This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.

Ephesians 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

All of these represent manifestations of God's will. Only one is an internal expression of His will and it is given in conjunction with our will. That is, given that God is willing and doing things in us, we ought to respond to what He is doing...work out what He is working in. Our response is a reflection of our will. God is willing in us and we are to align our wills with His.
The next 2 verses look at the same thing but from the outward perspective. As we recognize that God is working His will in us, how shall we live in light of this? How can we align our wills to His? As it concerns prayer, we change our prayers to what He desires to be prayed. When it comes to employment, we look to go where He leads and accept what He provides.
The last verse returns to the subject of God's will and makes a statement concerning it. It's a controversial verse but it needn't be. It says much the same thing as Romans 8:28. God uses the events that occur to accomplish His will. Acts 2:23 is a good example. God determined that Christ be crucified. He allowed wicked men to do it. He worked what was a tragic event to save mankind. For those who are the called it works out great.

 

[Magenta]

Romans 8:28

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

All of these represent manifestations of God's will. Only one is an internal expression of His will and it is given in conjunction with our will. That is, given that God is willing and doing things in us, we ought to respond to what He is doing...work out what He is working in. Our response is a reflection of our will. God is willing in us and we are to align our wills with His.
The next 2 verses look at the same thing but from the outward perspective. As we recognize that God is working His will in us, how shall we live in light of this? How can we align our wills to His? As it concerns prayer, we change our prayers to what He desires to be prayed. When it comes to employment, we look to go where He leads and accept what He provides.
The last verse returns to the subject of God's will and makes a statement concerning it. It's a controversial verse but it needn't be. It says much the same thing as Romans 8:28. God uses the events that occur to accomplish His will. Acts 2:23 is a good example. God determined that Christ be crucified. He allowed wicked men to do it. He worked what was a tragic event to save mankind. For those who are the called it works out great.

I don't blame anyones comprehension of will or predestination.

It's not something you can know unless you've lived it, which I have through an unusual set of circumstances,

However do you know which verse in genesis suggests that God did not know what Adam and Eve where going to do next, this was before the fall.

But also it was shortly after the first sin. Before they where cast out.


So I'm going to ask everyone this question until I get an answer.

Meanwhile God's will was living in eve, she said to serphant God told me. not to eat from the tree.





.

 

[Dino246]

Incorrect, your seeing will as one object again.

If your willing to accept you are, i will explain.

If you’re willing to learn basic English grammar, then please proceed with your explanation.

 

[Cameron143]

I don't blame anyones comprehension of will or predestination.

It's not something you can know unless you've lived it, which I have through an unusual set of circumstances,

However do you know which verse in genesis suggests that God did not know what Adam and Eve where going to do next, this was before the fall.

But also it was shortly after the first sin. Before they where cast out.


So I'm going to ask everyone this question until I get an answer.

Meanwhile God's will was living in eve, she said to serphant God told me. not to eat from the tree.





.

I know of no such verse, but Eve didn't say God told her. She said God said, but never states God directly said not to eat to her personally. She also added to what God actually did say.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I know of no such verse, but Eve didn't say God told her. She said God said, but never states God directly said not to eat to her personally. She also added to what God actually did say.

Theres a clear passage in genesis that indicates man was once living in the same time as God, and that God did not know what Adam or eve would do next before the fall. He only knew what they would do before they did it after the fall.

Where is it buddy 😊

 

[Genez]

where does it say God creates a soul that enters the body.

This verse is God telling an earthly father that there child who has become a living soul is also his.

Man became a living soul from the dust, which also means your flesh.

Your soul is also your flesh. More like your conscience

Its shown in the Hebrew text in Genesis One and Two.


Genesis 1:26-27

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, ​

so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, ​

over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures ​

that move along the ground.”​

​

So God created mankind in his own image,​

in the image of God he created them;​

male and female he created them.​

Genesis 1:27-28 states a different word for the creation of man -out from nothing - vs Genesis 2, which states that the body of Adam was 'molded and formed" out from the elements of the dirt .... Not, created out from nothing, like the souls were created in Genesis 1:27.

The Hebrew language indicates that the creation of man (male and female souls) were created out from nothing -[bara].
What took place in Genesis 1:27 was a completed act, and was a done deal.

The creation of the souls took place before bodies for those souls were provided.

The Hebrew word [jatsar] indicates that the bodies were not created out from nothing [bara] like the souls were created.
But, that Adam's body was 'molded and formed - [jatsar] - out from elements from the earth.

The body of man in Genesis Two was not created out from nothing like the souls were created out from nothing, as found in Genesis One: 27.

Without knowing the Hebrew? Some believers have gotten confused, and have created their own scenarios, some even to show that there were two creations of man. All sorts of distortions resulted in not knowing the Hebrew.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Its shown in the Hebrew text in Genesis One and Two.


Genesis 1:26-27

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, ​

so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, ​

over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures ​

that move along the ground.”​

​

So God created mankind in his own image,​

in the image of God he created them;​

male and female he created them.​

Genesis 1:27-28 states a different word for the creation of man -out from nothing - vs Genesis 2, which states that the body of Adam was 'molded and formed" out from the elements of the dirt .... Not, created out from nothing, like the souls were created in Genesis 1:27.

The Hebrew language indicates that the creation of man (male and female souls) were created out from nothing -[bara].
What took place in Genesis 1:27 was a completed act, and was a done deal.

The creation of the souls took place before bodies for those souls were provided.

The Hebrew word [jatsar] indicates that the bodies were not created out from nothing [bara] like the souls were created.
But, that Adam's body was 'molded and formed - [jatsar] - out from elements from the earth.

The body of man in Genesis Two was not created out from nothing like the souls were created out from nothing, as found in Genesis One: 27.

Without knowing the Hebrew? Some believers have gotten confused, and have created their own scenarios, some even to show that there were two creations of man. All sorts of distortions resulted in not knowing the Hebrew.

I've studied this a long time, and I cant agree, but what difference does it make to this discussion, and what difference does it make to the conscience of man being a living soul, to God creating his soul somewhere else.

But anyway there doesn't seem to be any indication anywhere in the bible, that new borns get a living soul from somewhere else, have you thought about that.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

If you’re willing to learn basic English grammar, then please proceed with your explanation.

I already did in my last two quotes to you, seems you don't want to acknowledge other understandings, other than your own 😊

 

[Dino246]

What you need to know is how God's knows what you will do next, and not how God would control what you do next.

For instance if Adam adam and Eve lived in the same time as God before the fall, he would not of know what they would do next.

If after the fall God changed his will in Adam and Eve to live out side of his time, say one year behind, then he would be knowing what you or they do next.

But still his will would still be in you.

But it would be an imprisoned will.

Since your grammar is so mixed up here, it’s difficult to determine what you are saying.

 

[Genez]

Theres a clear passage in genesis that indicates man was once living in the same time as God, and that God did not know what Adam or eve would do next before the fall. He only knew what they would do before they did it after the fall.

Please copy and paste that verse for us to see...

 

[Genez]

I've studied this a long time, and I cant agree, but what difference does it make to this discussion, and what difference does it make to the conscience of man being a living soul, to God creating his soul somewhere else..

The difference it makes for those who will verify what I stated, is that you are a con man and a faker.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Please copy and paste that verse for us to see...

At this stage I'm just going to say it's in genesis 3

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

The difference it makes for those who will verify what I stated, is that you are a con man and a faker.

that's not a difference to the discussion, thats your opinion.

Now where in the bible does it say new borns receive a soul from somewhere else.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Since your grammar is so mixed up here, it’s difficult to determine what you are saying.

yep

 

[Charlie_2024]

Actually you should read about the Book of Life again. All names are written in the book of life UNTIL THEY ARE REMOVED for refusal to repent and believe.
Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. (Exod 32:32,33)

It is not necessary to agree to a statement of faith to participate in God's church, Christ's body. It is not necessary to come to scripture with a set of doctrines already formulated by which the meaning of texts will be skewed. It is possible to come to scripture like a child and to let the scripture say what it wants to say with very few presuppositions.

We can choose to presuppose only -
1. God cannot lie.
2 The Bible is God's Word
3. Therefore Bible is true.

Beyond that, we can be open to whatever the scripture says to us as we read it using basic comprehension skills and logic.

I agree with all of that, but we still have the problem of the many different interpretations to deal with. Most of the people I've spoken to in various denominations told me that their views and understanding have changed a lot over the years. That's why so many move to other Churches where the Minister preaches the version they agree with.

Every denomination claims their interpretation is Biblically correct, the problem for the ordinary Christian is knowing who to believe. Since there are so many opposing views on so many Bible doctrines. There are many controversial doctrines such as predestination, which the average Christian struggles to chose a side and confidentially accept as accurate.

Most people don't have the time to go to seminary and devote years to study the Bible. There's so much to learn, the ordinary Christian has no choice other than to listen to what theologians say and go with those which sound the best to them. It's an individual choice which everyone has to make on their own.

The Church is not united, because of all the different views and interpretations. I can't see how they could ever be reconciled, whilst nobody is willing to tolerate opposing views.

 

[Charlie_2024]

Just to clarify, are the one yet to be born already in the book of life by name in your understanding.

Yes absolutely, John 6:37-40

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

The above verses indicate that those God choose will come to the Lord Jesus. Their salvation is sure because the Lord will certainly not cast them out.

When God chose His elect, the world wasn't created yet, so of 'course it included those yet to be born