PREDESTINATION (CALVINISM) VS. HUMAN FREE WILL (ARMINIANISM)

[John146]

Let the Bible itself address the issue. Consider the following propositions.

What Does the Bible Actually Say About Who Will Go To Heaven?
First, Jesus Christ declared that he is the exclusive way to God.

“I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one comes unto the Father, except by me” (John 14:6).

You can dispute this statement if you wish, but it is stated uncompromisingly there.

Do you believe that the only way to obtain salvation is through Christ? If you deny this, the biblical record is not your standard of authority, and further discussion is useless.

Second, the Scriptures clearly teach that some belong to Christ and others do not. Some are his “sheep,” the saved, while others are “goats,” and thus are lost (Matthew 25:31-46).

Third, no one is required to understand every aspect of Christian teaching. No one does. And no one can be perfectly obedient in all matters. No one ever has.

But to be saved, there is a threshold of understanding about elementary gospel truths that you must possess and a certain level of obedience that you must render before you can belong to Christ.

Didn’t Jesus teach that those who refuse to “understand” will not be able to receive the “healing” (i.e., the salvation) he offers (Matthew 13:15)?

Further, are we not taught that Christ is the author of salvation to those who “obey” him (Hebrews 5:9)? What would be the reverse of that affirmation?

Didn’t the Lord himself say, “He who believes on the Son has eternal life; but he who obeys not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him” (John 3:36 – ASV)?

Remember when Jesus declared that those who claim identity with him but fail to “do” (i.e., obey) God’s will are lost (Matthew 7:21-27)?

Do the words of Jesus mean anything?

Fourth, Paul, an inspired apostle, declared that Jesus Christ is “the savior of the body” (Eph. 5:23).

Here’s a simple but profound question. Is there any passage within the framework of Christian doctrine that provides hope to those who are not of that body?

Fifth, the same apostle in the very same epistle taught that there is “one body” (Eph. 4:4; cf. 1 Cor. 12:20).

Does this not imply that if a person is saved, they would have to be in that “one body”?

Sixth, Paul also defined the “one body” as the “church” (Eph. 1:22-23; Col. 1:18, 24). Doesn’t this signify that all the saved would be in “one” church (cf. John 10:16; 11:52)?

Seventh, another fact the apostle taught is that by the Spirit (i.e., through the instrumentation of His instruction via God’s word – Eph. 6:17), we are baptized into the “one body” (1 Cr. 12:13; cf. Gal. 3:26-27).
Finally, is it not the case that this baptism must conform to the New Testament pattern of doctrine? By this, we mean that baptism should be administered to the appropriate subjects, with the correct mode, and for the specified purpose of the rite to be effective toward salvation (cf. Rom. 6:17; Acts 19:1-5).
By Wayne Jackson | Christian Courierhttps://christiancourier.com/articles/will-only-your-bunch-be-saved#:~:text=By%20Wayne%20Jackson%20%7C%20Christian%20Courier

And yet, your post by Wayne Jackson has nothing to do with my statement.

 

[wattie]

I think it is a misnomer to just have Calvinism and Arminianism as they only options for salvation.

First..the bible alone is the determiner of salvation doctrine.. not Jacob Arminius or John Calvin.

Second..most of the time Arminianism is associated with not being eternally secure and Calvinism is.. but scripture teaches freewill to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, that once salvation is given..is unreversable.

Third..calvinism is associated with osas.. but it doesn't really teach osas .. it's only osas for the preset elect and then they are definitely going to be faithful to the end according to tulip. So if someone has believed on Jesus for salvation..if they get caught up in sin.. there is a high chance the Calvinist fruit inspector is gonna say 'never saved in the first place'

So, its the bible itself to go by.

 

[Nehemiah6]

So, its the bible itself to go by.

Exactly. Bible-believing Christians do not care about being in any camp. If the Bible is the final and sole authority, the doctrines of men can be totally ignored. The problem is that Calvinism has become cultish, and no matter what Scriptures refute It, Calvinists refuse to give up their beliefs. Indeed, they are in BONDAGE.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Christian forums. Constant fighting. Constant nagging at each other. All Chiefs and few Indians. Everyone is an expert. Few ever change their perspective. It

I think it is a misnomer to just have Calvinism and Arminianism as they only options for salvation.

First..the bible alone is the determiner of salvation doctrine.. not Jacob Arminius or John Calvin.

Second..most of the time Arminianism is associated with not being eternally secure and Calvinism is.. but scripture teaches freewill to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, that once salvation is given..is unreversable.

Third..calvinism is associated with osas.. but it doesn't really teach osas .. it's only osas for the preset elect and then they are definitely going to be faithful to the end according to tulip. So if someone has believed on Jesus for salvation..if they get caught up in sin.. there is a high chance the Calvinist fruit inspector is gonna say 'never saved in the first place'

So, its the bible itself to go by.

Hello Wattie. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Say, I have request. I have been trying to get people to give me an example of what it would look like if I, for example, did something against you that violated your sense of free will. IF, I had that Power, what would an example look like?

Thanks!

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

@wattie

Above, it is said that "calvanists," are cultish and they are in bondage, meaning that Satan is their Father and not Jesus.

Does that sound rational to you?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Does that sound rational to you?

The questions you should be asking are "Is TULIP even rational or biblical?" and "If is is not biblical why are people clinging to it?"

 

[wattie]

@wattie

Above, it is said that "calvanists," are cultish and they are in bondage, meaning that Satan is their Father and not Jesus.

Does that sound rational to you?

Well, I can't comment on that as I didn't say that. But I understand that conclusion

 

[wattie]

Christian forums. Constant fighting. Constant nagging at each other. All Chiefs and few Indians. Everyone is an expert. Few ever change their perspective. It


Hello Wattie. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Say, I have request. I have been trying to get people to give me an example of what it would look like if I, for example, did something against you that violated your sense of free will. IF, I had that Power, what would an example look like?

Thanks!

When it's my turn to bat in cricket and you jump in front and go out to bat before me!

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

The questions you should be asking are "Is TULIP even rational or biblical?" and "If is is not biblical why are people clinging to it?"

Could you please give me an example of what it would be like if I were to violate your sense of free will. What would it take? What would that look like? I'm hoping that someone can explain this. So far, no one is able to give an example. So, since you speak with utter Authority, if you could provide an explanatory example, I would appreciate it.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

When it's my turn to bat in cricket and you jump in front and go out to bat before me!

Say what? Are you serious?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Well, I can't comment on that as I didn't say that. But I understand that conclusion

Wow. That's just amazing.

Question. When you submitted to Christ, what did you submit to?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Could you please give me an example of what it would be like if I were to violate your sense of free will.

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking for. Locking innocent people up in a Gulag and persecuting them would be a good example of tyranny which violates free will and freedom of speech.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking for. Locking innocent people up in a Gulag and persecuting them would be a good example of tyranny which violates free will and freedom of speech.

Thank you for allowing me to clarify.

What I am asking, is that according to the proper definition of free will, whatever that is, consider that definition and then offer an idea of how that sense of free will could be taken away.

For example: If I had that ability to change the way you think, would that be a violation of your free will? So, that's just an example, but I would like to hear an example from yourself. Please be the first to be able to do it. That'd be great!

 

[Nehemiah6]

What I am asking, is that according to the proper definition of free will, whatever that is, consider that definition and then offer an idea of how that sense of free will could be taken away.

I already gave you an example. So let's drop this foolishness. You could not even define free will.

 

[wattie]

Wow. That's just amazing.

Question. When you submitted to Christ, what did you submit to?

Submit to Christ? I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal salvation. I was giving in to the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

 

[p_rehbein]

There is certainly a large body of evidence to support that idea. I can completely understand why people think they are in control, and not God. I would never suggest anything like that for my life, nor anyone else's. But if you want to teach that you are in control and that God isn't, well . . . that's one option, I suppose.

Free will does not mean one is in control of their lives. God is in control! Free will simply means that God loved us so much that He GAVE to us the free will to choose to love Him, or not. He does not want robots or slaves for His children; He wants those who freely choose to love Him. Free will is throughout the entire Bible. It is a precious gift from God.

 

[selahsays]

Thank you for allowing me to clarify.

What I am asking, is that according to the proper definition of free will, whatever that is, consider that definition and then offer an idea of how that sense of free will could be taken away.

For example: If I had that ability to change the way you think, would that be a violation of your free will? So, that's just an example, but I would like to hear an example from yourself. Please be the first to be able to do it. That'd be great!

First of all, Predestination is not Calvinism. The title of this thread is false. Predestination is of God, not Calvin.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I already gave you an example. So let's drop this foolishness.

No problem. After being told that I belong to a cult, that I am bound by the Devil, and am now a fool . . . I am more than happy to comply with your request.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Submit to Christ? I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal salvation. I was giving in to the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

You mean that you weren't explained the terms of the Covenant that you were entering into?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Free will does not mean one is in control of their lives. God is in control! Free will simply means that God loved us so much that He GAVE to us the free will to choose to love Him, or not. He does not want robots or slaves for His children; He wants those who freely choose to love Him. Free will is throughout the entire Bible. It is a precious gift from God.

Thank you for sharing.