the Sabbath

[Sipsey]

Hi Mailman,

I see that many people put too much weight on the words of Paul and forget again and again the teachings of Christ. If Paul said the same things as Christ there would be no arguments on this and any other forum. Paul is difficult to understand the way he writes is sometimes contradictory. I urge everyone to return to the teachings of Christ he is the way to eternal life. You cannot and will never go wrong if you follow his teachings. Jesus is the son of God who sits on the right of our Holy Father in Heaven, he did all things, gave us everything not Paul. We have to give importance to the words of Jesus above all else and not place Jesus in rank 2 behind Paul. When there is a discrepancy in the teachings we must follow Jesus teachings. what It means to believe in Christ, is to do as he asks, to proclaim the Kingdom of Heaven and to repent, abandon sin as defined by the commandments. It is not to constantly debate the law and commandments of GOD but also to teach them.

Peace

I am preparing a new post and will have less time to reply but I eventually will if needed.

Indeed, Peter agrees that sometimes what Paul says is not easy for everyone to understand, to their own detriment.

Your statement that “Pauls write things that contradict Jesus,” is at the root of your inability to distinguish between the simple faith that saves, and the requirement to adhere to a list of “Do’s and dont’s.”

Some proclaim that “saved by Grace through faith” teaches an easy grace vs a faith marked by visible, consistant works. This is why you have this “Yes, But” definition of God’s gift of salvation by His unmerited Grace.

 

[vassal]

Indeed, Peter agrees that sometimes what Paul says is not easy for everyone to understand, to their own detriment.

Your statement that “Pauls write things that contradict Jesus,” is at the root of your inability to distinguish between the simple faith that saves, and the requirement to adhere to a list of “Do’s and dont’s.”

Some proclaim that “saved by Grace through faith” teaches an easy grace vs a faith marked by visible, consistant works. This is why you have this “Yes, But” definition of God’s gift of salvation by His unmerited Grace.

I will give you something to ponder then;

Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


I know people use verses to accuse others, this is not what I am doing here, I am just saying be certain that what you believe is the truth according to the words of Jesus.

Peace

 

[Aaron56]

I will give you something to ponder then;

Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


I know people use verses to accuse others, this is not what I am doing here, I am just saying be certain that what you believe is the truth according to the words of Jesus.

Peace

Are Paul's words not the words of Christ?

 

[mailmandan]

No, its not salvation by works, it is righteousness by faith. We are only saved by Jesus through His blood by faith. Those who are saved live differently than the lost. Rev 14:12 You said so yourself, if we are sinning (breaking God's law) we are not in Christ.

Regarding John 3:16, everyone stops there, but John kept going. . .

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Here John makes the clear distinction that believing in Jesus is related to our obedience to Him. Those who choose to do evil (sin) does not come to the light because their deeds are evil, but we are called to come to the Truth (light) so our deeds can be exposed. This is what the Ten Commandments does- it shows us our sin/deeds just like a mirror. Rom 7:7 Romans 3:20 James 1:22-24 When we bury our sins (stay in darkness) we don't confess or forsake them and therefore God can't give us His mercy and grace and give us the power to help overcome. Proverbs 28:13 Those who seek God want to come to the Truth so Jesus can help us overcome our sins. Our salvation is from sin Mat 1:21 not in sin.

It's just common sense- if we believe we would believe His teaching and have faith to do them, not to be saved, but because one is saved.

God's will is we don't sin, as that separates us from God Isa 59:2 and shows we have another father 1 John 3:8 and why God doesn't want us to rebel against what He wrote in our hearts and minds. Heb 8:10 which is His will Psa 40:8

Its salvation by works no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. To be more specific, "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works."

 

[Sipsey]

I will give you something to ponder then;

Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


I know people use verses to accuse others, this is not what I am doing here, I am just saying be certain that what you believe is the truth according to the words of Jesus.

Peace

Whenever someone questions Paul’s writings, or says they seem to contradict other Scriptures, it always raises a red flag, to me.

I find it puzzling how some folks spend so little time speaking of the grace of God, but spend endless tomes on God’s judgement and the Law.

 

[jamessb]

Are Paul's words not the words of Christ?

No, they are Paul's words. He wrote the epistles, not Jesus.

 

[Aaron56]

No, they are Paul's words. He wrote the epistles, not Jesus.

Jesus died. So of course He didn't write them.

But Christ arose.

Is Paul not in Christ? Is Christ not in Paul? Can we ignore Paul and claim to obey Christ at the same time?

 

[Cameron143]

No, they are Paul's words. He wrote the epistles, not Jesus.

Are Jesus' words more authoritative than Paul's?

 

[Johann]

All I am asking is who is the source of repentance. Can you answer that question?

The source of true repentance, according to Scripture, is attributed primarily to the goodness of God. The Bible states that God's kindness and patience inspire repentance in individuals, leading them to turn away from sin and seek reconciliation with God (Romans 2:4; Ezekiel 33:11)


. Additionally, the Holy Spirit convicts believers of their sin and guides them into repentance (John 16:8)

. However, while God initiates the process of repentance, it remains a choice made by each individual to turn from sin and embrace a godly lifestyle.
J.

 

[Johann]

Are Jesus' words more authoritative than Paul's?

Good question


Jesus' words and teachings are not more authoritative than Paul's in an absolute sense, as both figures played crucial roles in the development of early Christianity. Their messages complement each other, although they emphasize different aspects of the Christian faith.Jesus focused on the imminent arrival of the kingdom of God, the necessity of keeping the Law as he interpreted it, and the significance of faith in God as a loving parent bringing forth the kingdom

. Paul, however, stressed the importance of faith in Christ's death and resurrection for salvation, the separation of Jew and Gentile in the church, and the concept of justification by faith without adherence to the Law


.Peter referred to Paul's letters as "Scripture" alongside the Old Testament, indicating that Paul's writings were recognized as divinely inspired and authoritative

. However, this does not mean that Jesus' words are less important or authoritative; rather, it highlights the unity and interdependence of the biblical texts.In conclusion, while Jesus' words and teachings are foundational to Christianity, Paul's contributions should not be disregarded or diminished. Both figures offer essential insights into the Christian faith, and their messages are intended to be integrated and applied together.
J.

 

[Cameron143]

Good question


Jesus' words and teachings are not more authoritative than Paul's in an absolute sense, as both figures played crucial roles in the development of early Christianity. Their messages complement each other, although they emphasize different aspects of the Christian faith.Jesus focused on the imminent arrival of the kingdom of God, the necessity of keeping the Law as he interpreted it, and the significance of faith in God as a loving parent bringing forth the kingdom
. Paul, however, stressed the importance of faith in Christ's death and resurrection for salvation, the separation of Jew and Gentile in the church, and the concept of justification by faith without adherence to the Law
.Peter referred to Paul's letters as "Scripture" alongside the Old Testament, indicating that Paul's writings were recognized as divinely inspired and authoritative
. However, this does not mean that Jesus' words are less important or authoritative; rather, it highlights the unity and interdependence of the biblical texts.In conclusion, while Jesus' words and teachings are foundational to Christianity, Paul's contributions should not be disregarded or diminished. Both figures offer essential insights into the Christian faith, and their messages are intended to be integrated and applied together.
J.

All scripture is God-breathed. It's all the words of Jesus.

 

[Johann]

Its salvation by works no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. To be more specific, "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works."

Salvation cannot be achieved through a combination of grace and works, nor through faith and works alone. Rather, salvation is entirely dependent upon God's grace, received through faith in Jesus Christ. The Bible consistently teaches that salvation is a gift from God, not something earned through our efforts (Ephesians 2:8-9).

However, some misunderstandings regarding the relationship between grace and works might arise due to misinterpretations of certain biblical concepts. Let's address the idea of "grace plus law, faith plus works":

Grace + Law: Grace and the Law are distinct concepts. The Law reveals our need for grace because it shows us our imperfections and shortcomings (Romans 3:20). Grace, on the other hand, is God's undeserved favor extended to sinners through faith in Jesus Christ. Grace and the Law are not mutually exclusive; rather, they serve different purposes within the framework of salvation.

Faith + Works: Faith and works are related but distinct concepts. Saving faith leads to obedience and good deeds (James 2:14-26); however, works do not contribute to our salvation. Good works flow out of a saved person's new nature, not as a means of earning salvation.

It is essential to understand that salvation is a free gift from God, available to anyone who believes in Jesus Christ (John 3:16). No amount of effort or good works can earn salvation. At the same time, genuine saving faith always produces fruitful lives characterized by obedience and good deeds (Titus 2:11-14).

In summary, salvation is a gift from God, received through faith in Jesus Christ. Although good works follow from genuine faith, they do not contribute to our salvation. Attempts to combine grace and works, or faith and works, ultimately lead to a distorted view of salvation and miss the core message of the Gospel.
J.

 

[Johann]

All scripture is God-breathed. It's all the words of Jesus.

The belief that all scripture is God-breathed and all the words in the Bible are the words of Jesus is a theological perspective that varies among Christian denominations.

While Jesus' teachings are highly regarded, it is important to note that the Bible contains writings from various authors, including the apostle Paul.

Paul's writings are considered authoritative and inspired by God, as affirmed by Peter in 2 Peter 3:15-16, where he refers to Paul's letters as Scripture.

This does not diminish the importance of Jesus' words but emphasizes the divine inspiration of the entire Bible.The Bible consists of both the Old and New Testaments, with each part contributing to the overall message of God's redemptive plan for humanity.

While Jesus' direct teachings are highlighted in the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John), other parts of the New Testament, including Paul's epistles, provide essential guidance and theological insights for believers. Therefore, while Jesus' words hold significant importance, the entirety of scripture is considered inspired by God and valuable for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16).
J.

 

[vassal]

Whenever someone questions Paul’s writings, or says they seem to contradict other Scriptures, it always raises a red flag, to me.

I find it puzzling how some folks spend so little time speaking of the grace of God, but spend endless tomes on God’s judgement and the Law.

the Grace of GOD is all over the bible Paul did not invent the term;
Jhn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

 

[vassal]

All scripture is God-breathed. It's all the words of Jesus.

The words of Jesus are in red letters, if you have such a bible.

Peace

 

[Johann]

the Grace of GOD is all over the bible Paul did not invent the term;
Jhn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Yes, the concept of grace is pervasive throughout the Bible, and Paul did not invent the term. The word "grace" is mentioned numerous times across both the Old and New Testaments, highlighting God's mercy and kindness towards His creation.In particular, John 1:17 states, "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ," indicating that grace is closely associated with Jesus' ministry and the arrival of the New Covenant. However, the theme of grace is evident even prior to Jesus' coming, as exemplified in Exodus 34:6, where God describes Himself as "the Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious..."


.Paul frequently discusses grace in his epistles, such as in Ephesians 2:8-9, where he writes, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Here, Paul reinforces the centrality of grace in salvation, echoing themes established earlier in the Bible


.Therefore, while Paul certainly elaborated on the implications of grace in the New Testament, the concept itself is deeply rooted in the broader narrative of Scripture.

 

[Johann]

The words of Jesus are in red letters, if you have such a bible.

Don't forget Paul-it is written in black.

 

[Cameron143]

The words of Jesus are in red letters, if you have such a bible.

Peace

Were they written in red when they were originally penned?

 

[Johann]

Don't forget Paul-it is written in black.

Paul wrote thirteen letters to churches that are included in the New Testament. Some scholars believe it is actually fourteen letters because there is some debate regarding the true author of Hebrews

. The seven letters that most critical scholars agree were written by Paul are Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, and Philemon

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Its salvation by works no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. To be more specific, "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works."

In reality, it’s not us who is sugar coating. There is no scripture that says we are saved in our sins. Our salvation is from sin Mat 1:21

Jesus taught repent, for the Kingdom is at hand. Mat 4:17

And not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments and in doing so one is least in heaven. Mat 5:19-30 If you read the very next verse least means lost. v20

Which is why we are called out of our false teachings as we are in the last days Rev 18:4 but just like the majority in scripture it falls on deaf ears as people prefer smooth doctrine that are easy on the ears instead of receiving the life jacket that leads back to reconciliation Rev 22:14. The law can’t save us, it just shows us the reflection of our state and its up to use to seek help in Jesus by receiving His mercy, grace and sanctification. If we remove the law, we won’t even know when we are dirty and won’t know how bad a position that is to be in. Pro 28:13 Heb 10:26–30