Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Johann]

I'm confused. So, then you're agreeing with me because I think that is what I have been saying (I just woke up so
I may not be fully functioning at this moment, nor have I had any coffee yet)? I would just add that our faith in Christ comes as a
result of the faith of Christ having been imputed to us.

Just woke up myself-and need coffee right now.

The idea that our faith in Christ comes as a result of the faith of Christ having been imputed to us is a theological concept that is rooted in the doctrine of justification by faith. According to this doctrine, salvation is a gift of God that is received through faith in Jesus Christ, and not by any works or merit of our own.

This faith is not something that we generate on our own, but rather is a gift from God that is imputed, or credited, to us through the work of Christ on the cross.

The concept of imputed faith is based on several biblical passages, including Romans 3:22-24, which states that "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

This passage emphasizes that our justification and salvation come through faith in Jesus Christ, and not by any works or merit of our own.

Additionally, Galatians 2:20 states that "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."

This verse emphasizes the idea that our faith in Christ is not something that we generate on our own, but rather is a result of Christ living in us and working through us.

So that no man may boast.
J.
In summary, the concept of imputed faith emphasizes that our faith in Christ is a gift from God that is credited to us through the work of Christ on the cross. This faith is not something that we generate on our own, but rather is a result of Christ living in us and working through us.

 

[Johann]

If I agree with you everyone will probably hate you for it, but yes, you are correct. In the spiritual sense,
God does not love everyone. Where I disagree is that God loves only those (past, present, future) justified by Christ. He does not love
the others because in not being justified by Him, they remain guilty of sin.

Goes contrary to -"For in THIS manner-YHVH so loved the world and YHVH hath no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

The Bible teaches that God loves everyone, regardless of their race, gender, or social status. John 3:16 is a well-known verse that states, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

This verse emphasizes that God's love is available to everyone who believes in Jesus Christ. Romans 5:8 also states, "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

This verse emphasizes that God's love is not based on our merit or worthiness, but rather on His own character and grace.

Other verses that emphasize God's love for everyone include 1 John 4:7-8, which states, "Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."

This verse emphasizes that love is a defining characteristic of God's nature and that those who know God will also love others.

In summary, the Bible teaches that God loves everyone, and this love is not based on our merit or worthiness but on His own character and grace. God's love is available to everyone who believes in Jesus Christ, and those who know God will also love others.

My apology for disagreeing with you here-bearing in mind the post-crucifixion and pre-Crucifixion
of our Lord and great God-Yeshua HaMashiach

Johann.

 

[rogerg]

In summary, the concept of imputed faith emphasizes that our faith in Christ is a gift from God that is credited to us through the work of Christ on the cross. This faith is not something that we generate on our own, but rather is a result of Christ living in us and working through us.

I think I would have to categorize your answer (and I could be wrong), as a yes, you agree with me - but I still haven't had coffee yet -
if I've misunderstood you, please let me know.
So, the next controversial question then becomes: why are some imputed faith in Christ, and some aren't?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You can't rewrite Scripture, what do they not get? It's ridiculous that someone is so brainwashed that they literally read the words in front of them then say " it doesn't say that". smh Looks like the Jews aren't the only ones blinded.

Sadly, Satan uses religion to blind many,

We trust men so much, that we can read the words and see things the word does not say..

No different than the phartisees. Who saw Jesus do what the OT said he would. but due to their unbelief never saw the truth..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

No, only to the elect. All nations will be blessed because the elect come from people of all nations, creeds, colors, etc.

Never given to a gentile? Not sure what you mean by that.

No,

Only to those who have the faith of Abraham.

In you (Your seed or Christ), Shall all the nations of the world be blessed.

As for the promise of land and peace. Sorry, Only the children of Abraham Isaac and Jacob receive that promise. A gentile can partake in it. but it was never given to them

You need to learn how to differentiate different aspects of the abrahamic covenant

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Yes, but which world? This one, or the one to come?

He died for the world. that whoever in that world believes in him, will not perish, but will live forever.

 

[Johann]

I think I would have to categorize your answer (and I could be wrong), as a yes, you agree with me - but I still haven't had coffee yet -
if I've misunderstood you, please let me know.
So, the next controversial question then becomes: why are some imputed faith in Christ, and some aren't?

I think we are on the same page @rogerg-as to the WHY-I don't want to conjecture or speculate-

The question of why some individuals are imputed with faith in Christ while others are not is a complex and controversial theological issue. It is rooted in the broader debate over the nature of justification and the imputation of Christ's righteousness to believers. The concept of imputed righteousness is central to Reformed theology, which teaches that the righteousness of Christ is credited to believers, enabling them to be declared righteous before God.

The controversy surrounding this topic is evident in the various discussions and debates among theologians and scholars. Some argue for the traditional Reformed view of imputation, while others challenge or reject this understanding. The debate often involves nuanced interpretations of biblical passages, theological paradigms, and the implications for the doctrine of justification.

The search results provide insights into the ongoing discussions and disagreements related to the imputation controversy.

They include articles, forum discussions, and theological reflections that illustrate the diverse perspectives and interpretations within the Christian community.

Given the complexity and depth of this theological debate, it is important to approach the topic with careful consideration of the biblical evidence, historical context, and doctrinal implications. The question of why some are imputed with faith in Christ is deeply intertwined with broader theological frameworks and requires a comprehensive examination of relevant biblical passages and theological perspectives.

Notice the ongoing discussions and disagreements as to the Why?

Hope my answer will suffice.
J.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Well he hated him so much he basically cursed his descendents. 😬 that's intense to me.

"saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
[3] And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness."

Actually I forgot Esau tried to kill Jacob. So it makes sense why God hated him like Cain actually.

I use to believe God loved everyone, but that's not what he Bible says.

You should study some more.

He hated Edom and destroyed it because of what Esau's descendents did to Jacobs decendents.

a good place to start is Ez 25:

Ezek 25:
12 ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Because of what Edom did against the house of Judah by taking vengeance, and has greatly offended by avenging itself on them,” 13 therefore thus says the Lord God: “I will also stretch out My hand against Edom, cut off man and beast from it, and make it desolate from Teman; [b]Dedan shall fall by the sword. 14 I will lay My vengeance on Edom by the hand of My people Israel, that they may do in Edom according to My anger and according to My fury; and they shall know My vengeance,” says the Lord God.

 

[rogerg]

The Bible teaches that God loves everyone, regardless of their race, gender, or social status. John 3:16 is a well-known verse that states, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

He does not make distinction based upon the categories you've mentioned above but He does make it between those justified
by Christ and those who aren't and won't be.
He doesn't love this world but the world to come - the new heavens and earth. This world, and all who remain in it (the unsaved),
will be destroyed by God.

This verse emphasizes that God's love is available to everyone who believes in Jesus Christ. Romans 5:8 also states, "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

In that verse and others in proximity to it, Paul is addressing those who are justified by Christ, but that is not everyone - the faith in view, is Christ's faith.

[Rom 5:1 KJV] 1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

In summary, the Bible teaches that God loves everyone, and this love is not based on our merit or worthiness but on His own character and grace. God's love is available to everyone who believes in Jesus Christ, and those who know God will also love others.

Esau will be very happy to hear that (kidding).
Well, didn't you in a prior post state that to that believe in Jesus Christ is a gift from God through Christ living within certain people? Or is it that you actually meant that Christ lives in everyone?

 

[brightfame52]

this is correct… without a full understanding of the old testamemt, especially the prophets (of whom he declared his will) you cannot have a grasp on new testament doctrine.. my marriage of 14 years dissolved cuz my wife held close to doctrines of universalism from cherry picked new testament verses, all in disagreement with the prophets and making yahweh a liar 🤦🏼‍♂️ there is hope yet for a remnant that read the scripture genesis to revelation, in context, with proper greek and hebrew translations,

God gave Paul a proper understanding of the OT Prophets and greek and hebrew. He is a reliable source

 

[Johann]

Well he hated him so much he basically cursed his descendents. 😬 that's intense to me.

"saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
[3] And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness."

Actually I forgot Esau tried to kill Jacob. So it makes sense why God hated him like Cain actually.

I use to believe God loved everyone, but that's not what he Bible says.

The verse you provided, "Saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness" (Malachi 1:2-3), is a complex and controversial passage that has been the subject of various interpretations and theological discussions. The phrase "I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau" has been understood in different ways, and its meaning is not straightforward.

The search results provided include various commentaries and reflections on related passages, such as Lamentations 2 and Malachi 1. These resources offer insights into the historical, cultural, and literary context of the verses, as well as different exegetical perspectives.

The verse from Malachi is often interpreted in the context of God's sovereign choice and His dealings with nations rather than individuals. It is important to consider the broader biblical narrative and the principles of God's justice, mercy, and love when interpreting such passages.

Given the complexity of the topic and the diverse range of interpretations, it is advisable to consult a variety of reputable commentaries, theological resources, and scholarly works to gain a comprehensive understanding of the passage. Additionally, engaging in discussions with knowledgeable individuals or scholars within a faith community can provide valuable insights into the interpretation of this verse.

But most don't want to search reputable commentaries-theological sources and scholarly works-what a shame.
J.

 

[rogerg]

The question of why some individuals are imputed with faith in Christ while others are not is a complex and controversial theological issue. It is rooted in the broader debate over the nature of justification and the imputation of Christ's righteousness to believers. The concept of imputed righteousness is central to Reformed theology, which teaches that the righteousness of Christ is credited to believers, enabling them to be declared righteous before God.

The controversy surrounding this topic is evident in the various discussions and debates among theologians and scholars. Some argue for the traditional Reformed view of imputation, while others challenge or reject this understanding. The debate often involves nuanced interpretations of biblical passages, theological paradigms, and the implications for the doctrine of justification.

Respectfully, to me it is quite simple - that God, being an exceeding merciful and gracious God, chose to give it solely based upon His divine prerogative and good pleasure, regardless that those He chose deserved it no more than those He didn't choose - all completely deserving only His wrath.
Being God, and as the one who brought salvation to fruition, it is His right to do exactly that, with no explanations required
as to whom He chose or why He chose them.

 

[rogerg]

He died for the world. that whoever in that world believes in him, will not perish, but will live forever.

If He died for the world (assuming you meant the people in it), then whether someone believes or not is irrelevant. - all must
be saved regardless of their belief since He died for them. This is because God the Father had already accepted Christ's offering,
and once accepted, as Christ said, "it is finished", so no further actions nor choices can enter into it - it was closed and no longer open
to modification.

 

[Johann]

He does not make distinction based upon the categories you've mentioned above but He does make it between those justified
by Christ and those who aren't and won't be.
He doesn't love this world but the world to come - the new heavens and earth. This world, and all who remain in it (the unsaved),
will be destroyed by God.



In that verse and others in proximity to it, Paul is addressing those who are justified by Christ, but that is not everyone - the faith in view, is Christ's faith.

[Rom 5:1 KJV] 1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:



Esau will be very happy to hear that (kidding).
Well, didn't you in a prior post state that to that believe in Jesus Christ is a gift from God through Christ living within certain people? Or is it that you actually meant that Christ lives in everyone?

Only those who are regenerated and sealed/stamped with the Holy Spirit in light of the Scriptures.
For without the sealing of the Ruach no one belongs to Messiah.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

by πίστεως pisteōs|G4102|N-GFS|faith, εἰρήνην-Genitive-our faith or the faith of Christ?

The phrase "by πίστεως" (by faith) appears in various passages in the New Testament and can be understood in different ways depending on the context. In some cases, it refers to the faith of the individual believer, while in other cases, it refers to the faith of Christ.

For example, in Romans 5:1, the phrase "by πίστεως" is translated as "by faith" and refers to the faith of the individual believer. The verse reads, "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Here, the phrase emphasizes that the believer's faith in Jesus Christ is the means by which they are justified and reconciled to God.

In other passages, such as Galatians 2:16, the phrase "by πίστεως" is translated as "by faith in Jesus Christ" and refers to the faith of Christ. The verse reads, "yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified." Here, the phrase emphasizes that it is through faith in Jesus Christ that believers are justified, rather than through their own works or merit.

In summary, the phrase "by πίστεως" can refer to the faith of the individual believer or the faith of Christ, depending on the context of the passage. In either case, faith is emphasized as the means by which believers are justified and reconciled to God.

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

by the πίστει pistei|G4102|N-DFS|faith εἰς eis-Noun - Dative Feminine Singular

Wish I had a Logos program-would have made it so much easier-

Anyway-busy with my second cup of coffee-really tired brother.
J.

 

[rogerg]

Only to those who have the faith of Abraham.

It was Christ's faith that was reckoned to Abraham, likewise, only those to whom it is also imputed will be saved.

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

If He died for the world (assuming you meant the people in it), then whether someone believes or not is irrelevant.

This makes no sense whatsoever.

- all must
be saved regardless of their belief since He died for them.

Again, this makes no sense. God sets the standard. and God said what must be done to be saved. If God says you must repent and believe to recieve him, Then that is the gospel..

This is because God the Father had already accepted Christ's offering,
and once accepted, as Christ said, "it is finished", so no further actions nor choices can enter into it - it was closed and no longer open
to modification.

Your right. no more work has to be done

But he will not force it on you. He demands you receive it in faith.

I would not doubt God.

 

[Johann]

Respectfully, to me it is quite simple - that God, being an exceeding merciful and gracious God, chose to give it solely based upon His divine prerogative and good pleasure, regardless that those He chose deserved it no more than those He didn't choose - all completely deserving only His wrath.
Being God, and as the one who brought salvation to fruition, it is His right to do exactly that, with no explanations required
as to whom He chose or why He chose them.

Depends on which worldview you hold-Reformed or Arminian or Scriptures. No offense. if it that simple-why the ongoing debates?
Shalom brother.
J.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It was Christ's faith that was reckoned to Abraham, likewise, only those to whom it is also imputed will be saved.

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

You should not cherry pick verses. You risk being exposed.

Rom 4:
9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was t accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

The Promise Granted Through Faith
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

It was Not Gods faith. Jesus faith happened 2000 years ago,

Now we must have faith in him.

 

[rogerg]

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

It is by Christ's faith, not man's. Only Christ and His faith is anyone justified.

n other passages, such as Galatians 2:16, the phrase "by πίστεως" is translated as "by faith in Jesus Christ" and refers to the faith of Christ. The verse reads, "yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified." Here, the phrase emphasizes that it is through faith in Jesus Christ that believers are justified, rather than through their own works or merit.

No, it is translated "by the faith OF Christ. We can know it should be translated that way because it is in the genitive case.
The genitive case denotes ownership; that is, the faith belongs to Christ, it is not faith to or towards Christ. Further,
we can see in the verse where "faith in Christ" is specifically used because the "in" exists within it.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing[G1492] that[G3754] a man[G444] is[G1344][G0] not[G3756] justified[G1344] by[G1537] the works[G2041] of the law,[G3551] but[G3362] by[G1223] the faith[G4102] of Jesus[G2424] Christ,[G5547] even[G2532] we[G2249] have believed[G4100] in[G1519] Jesus[G2424] Christ,[G5547] that[G2443] we might be justified[G1344] by[G1537] the faith[G4102] of Christ,[G5547] and[G2532] not[G3756] by[G1537] the works[G2041] of the law:[G3551] for[G1360] by[G1537] the works[G2041] of the law[G3551] shall[G1344][G0] no[G3756][G3956] flesh[G4561] be justified.[G1344]

G2424 (of Christ):
Speech:NounCase:GenitiveNumber:SingularGender:Masculine

The genitive case denotes possession. A noun, pronoun, or adjective in the genitive case is often used as a possessive form or the object of a preposition. The genitive case is used much like in the English language with words such as: “my,” “your,” “his,” “hers.” A genitive often follows after the noun it qualifies.

All of the "of Christ" in the Bible that I can recall (although I might have missed some), are in the genitive case, denoting
it being Christ's faith, not faith in Christ, although, if I remember correctly, there are a few instances where an "in" was also in the genitive case - I guess that means that it is Christ's faith that exists within Him.

G1519 (in)

1. into, unto, to, towards, for, among

 

[rogerg]

9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.

Right. It was Christ's faith that was accounted to Abraham. Whose faith do you think was accounted to him? Who else's faith
could it have been? Abraham's faith being accounted to Abraham?