What if you die before water baptism?
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I'm still waiting for @CS1 and @GRACE_ambassador to admit Jesus baptised people, and I'm still waiting for them to answer other questions, and @GRACE_ambassador says hes happy to discuss 🤔
John
After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized. 24 (This was before John was put in prison.) 25 An argument developed between some of John’s disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26 They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—look, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him. 👍
John
After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized. 24 (This was before John was put in prison.) 25 An argument developed between some of John’s disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26 They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—look, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him. 👍
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Note historical evidence:
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA, 1967 edition, volume 2, pages 56, 59.
“An explicit reference to the Trinitarian formula of baptism cannot be found in the first centuries.”
ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION AND ETHICS James Hastings, Published 1924, volume 2, Pages 377, 378, 384, 389:
Page 377. “It is clear from the contemporary usage (Acts 1:15; 11:13; Revelations 3:4) that ‘name’ was an ancient synonym for ‘person.’
Page 378 “Whereupon the latter sealed the reception of the candidate into the holy community by invoking ‘the fair name’ of the Lord Jesus upon his head (James 2:7; Revelations 7:3; 9:4; 14:1; 22:4).”
Page 384. “The formula used was “in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ,” or some synonymous phrase. There is no evidence for the use of the triune name.”
Page 389. The earliest known formula is, “in the name of the Lord Jesus” or some similar phrase...”
DICTIONARY OF THE BIBLE—Grant and Rowley (Edited bv James Hastings), 1963 Revised Edition, page 88
…“the primitive Church baptized ‘in’ or ‘into the name of Jesus’ (or ‘Jesus Christ’, or ‘the Lord Jesus’, (1 Corinthians 1:13, 15; Acts 8:16; 19:5).... Thus the spoken formula, ‘in the name of Jesus’, effected the presence of the risen Lord and gave the baptized into His possession and protection.
ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION AND ETHICS Scribner‘s T & T Clark, Edinburgh, 1924, vol 1 Page 380
“Christian baptism, when connected with the mention of a formula, is alluded to four times in the Acts (2:38, 8:16, 10:48, 19:5) and the formula is never that of (Matthew 28:19) but is twice in the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38, 10:48) and twice in the name of the Lord Jesus (Acts 8:16, 19:5).
That this was the usual formula of Christian baptism is supported by the evidence of the Pauline Epistles, which speak of being baptized only into Christ or into Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:27, Romans 6:3).
Is it possible to reconcile these facts with the belief that Christ commanded the disciples to baptize in the trine name?
The obvious explanation of the silence of New Testament on the trine name, and the use of another formula in Acts and Paul is that this other formula was the earlier, and that the trine formula is a later edition. It would require very strong argument to controvert this presumption, and none seems to exist”.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA, VOLUME 8
“Justin Martys was one of the early Fathers of the Roman Catholic Church who helped change the ancient baptism of “in the Name of Jesus Christ” to the titles of Father, Son and Holy Ghost”
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEIA, 1913 edition, volume 2, Page 265:
“They acknowledge that the original formula for baptism was in the Name of Jesus, but
the pope changed it.”
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA, 1913 EDITION.
“There has been a theological controversy over the question as to whether baptism in the name of Christ only was ever held valid. Certain texts in the New Testament have given rise to this difficulty.
Thus St Paul (Acts 19
commands some disciples at Ephesus to be baptized in Christ’s Name: “they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”
In Acts 10 we read that St Peter ordered others to be baptized “in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ”. Those who were converted by Philip (Acts 8 “were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ”, and above all we have the explicit command of the Prince of the Apostles: “Be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins” (Acts 2:38).
Owing to these texts some theologians have held that the Apostles baptized in the name of Christ only
HASTINGS ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION—Vol 2, pages 377, 378, 389.
“The Christian baptism was administered using the name of Jesus. The use of the trinitarian formula of any sort was not suggested in the early Church history, Baptism was always in the Name of the Lord Jesus, until the time of Justin Martyr, when the trinity formula was used.
Volume 2, page 377, commenting on Acts 2:38, “Name was an ancient synonym for person. Payment was always made in the name of some person, referring to ownership, therefore, one being baptized in Jesus name became his personal property, (“Ye are Christ’s I Corinthians 3:23.)
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA, 1967 edition, volume 2, pages 56, 59.
“An explicit reference to the Trinitarian formula of baptism cannot be found in the first centuries.”
ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION AND ETHICS James Hastings, Published 1924, volume 2, Pages 377, 378, 384, 389:
Page 377. “It is clear from the contemporary usage (Acts 1:15; 11:13; Revelations 3:4) that ‘name’ was an ancient synonym for ‘person.’
Page 378 “Whereupon the latter sealed the reception of the candidate into the holy community by invoking ‘the fair name’ of the Lord Jesus upon his head (James 2:7; Revelations 7:3; 9:4; 14:1; 22:4).”
Page 384. “The formula used was “in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ,” or some synonymous phrase. There is no evidence for the use of the triune name.”
Page 389. The earliest known formula is, “in the name of the Lord Jesus” or some similar phrase...”
DICTIONARY OF THE BIBLE—Grant and Rowley (Edited bv James Hastings), 1963 Revised Edition, page 88
…“the primitive Church baptized ‘in’ or ‘into the name of Jesus’ (or ‘Jesus Christ’, or ‘the Lord Jesus’, (1 Corinthians 1:13, 15; Acts 8:16; 19:5).... Thus the spoken formula, ‘in the name of Jesus’, effected the presence of the risen Lord and gave the baptized into His possession and protection.
ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION AND ETHICS Scribner‘s T & T Clark, Edinburgh, 1924, vol 1 Page 380
“Christian baptism, when connected with the mention of a formula, is alluded to four times in the Acts (2:38, 8:16, 10:48, 19:5) and the formula is never that of (Matthew 28:19) but is twice in the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38, 10:48) and twice in the name of the Lord Jesus (Acts 8:16, 19:5).
That this was the usual formula of Christian baptism is supported by the evidence of the Pauline Epistles, which speak of being baptized only into Christ or into Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:27, Romans 6:3).
Is it possible to reconcile these facts with the belief that Christ commanded the disciples to baptize in the trine name?
The obvious explanation of the silence of New Testament on the trine name, and the use of another formula in Acts and Paul is that this other formula was the earlier, and that the trine formula is a later edition. It would require very strong argument to controvert this presumption, and none seems to exist”.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA, VOLUME 8
“Justin Martys was one of the early Fathers of the Roman Catholic Church who helped change the ancient baptism of “in the Name of Jesus Christ” to the titles of Father, Son and Holy Ghost”
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEIA, 1913 edition, volume 2, Page 265:
“They acknowledge that the original formula for baptism was in the Name of Jesus, but
the pope changed it.”
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA, 1913 EDITION.
“There has been a theological controversy over the question as to whether baptism in the name of Christ only was ever held valid. Certain texts in the New Testament have given rise to this difficulty.
Thus St Paul (Acts 19
commands some disciples at Ephesus to be baptized in Christ’s Name: “they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”In Acts 10 we read that St Peter ordered others to be baptized “in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ”. Those who were converted by Philip (Acts 8
“were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ”, and above all we have the explicit command of the Prince of the Apostles: “Be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins” (Acts 2:38).Owing to these texts some theologians have held that the Apostles baptized in the name of Christ only
HASTINGS ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION—Vol 2, pages 377, 378, 389.
“The Christian baptism was administered using the name of Jesus. The use of the trinitarian formula of any sort was not suggested in the early Church history, Baptism was always in the Name of the Lord Jesus, until the time of Justin Martyr, when the trinity formula was used.
Volume 2, page 377, commenting on Acts 2:38, “Name was an ancient synonym for person. Payment was always made in the name of some person, referring to ownership, therefore, one being baptized in Jesus name became his personal property, (“Ye are Christ’s I Corinthians 3:23.)
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the pair of you are behaving like children,
The bible clearly states he was baptising.
Now because it was said he did not baptise in one verse, does not mean, he did not baptise in another verse. You make theses mistakes when you cherry pick.
The point is @CS1 has said Jesus never baptised at all then called people legalistic, which is not true according to the scripture I posted, separate to one you have posted Jesus baptised.
Now to further this childish behaviour @CS1 is behaving like a child with a rattle, as now he won't admit believers get given the mind of Christ.
As far as I am aware this belief is essential to knowing you are saved.. that believers get given the mind of Christ.
But yet @CS1 would rather repeat himself over and over, instead of accepting the word of God.
At some point no doubt he will resort to becoming aggressive and start name calling. Which he already has done, by calling people legalistic. He seems to have a habit of doing this.
THis is a huge plank in his own eye, that will never be removed, I would guess it's some sort of corrupted denomination hes listening too.
or he's been arguing that long arguing is a second nature to him, anyhow I hope he allows the good scripture to be approved today.
all tho I don't think he will allow the good scripture to be approved today somehow, which is a shame really. 😊
The bible clearly states he was baptising.
Now because it was said he did not baptise in one verse, does not mean, he did not baptise in another verse. You make theses mistakes when you cherry pick.
The point is @CS1 has said Jesus never baptised at all then called people legalistic, which is not true according to the scripture I posted, separate to one you have posted Jesus baptised.
Now to further this childish behaviour @CS1 is behaving like a child with a rattle, as now he won't admit believers get given the mind of Christ.
As far as I am aware this belief is essential to knowing you are saved.. that believers get given the mind of Christ.
But yet @CS1 would rather repeat himself over and over, instead of accepting the word of God.
At some point no doubt he will resort to becoming aggressive and start name calling. Which he already has done, by calling people legalistic. He seems to have a habit of doing this.
THis is a huge plank in his own eye, that will never be removed, I would guess it's some sort of corrupted denomination hes listening too.
or he's been arguing that long arguing is a second nature to him, anyhow I hope he allows the good scripture to be approved today.
all tho I don't think he will allow the good scripture to be approved today somehow, which is a shame really. 😊
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AGAIN, I did not say they corrupted the bible!
I, SAID!!! Instead of obeying Jesus' command and continuing to baptize people in the name of Jesus, they instituted the practice of repeating the phrase He spoke in Matthew 28:19.
"Matthew 28:19 is NOT an example of believers being baptized; it is the commission of Christ that must be fulfilled. Jesus instructed to baptize IN THE NAME, which both Scripture and history proves to be JESUS...
Jesus clearly stated that we make the word of God of none effect if we follow the traditions of men (Mark 7:13). He emphasized, “In vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men” (Mat. 15:9). (Also see Gal. 1:8, 9; 2 Tim. 4:3, 4 Deut. 4:2; Rev. 22:18, 19.)
“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For IN HIM DWELLETH ALL the fullness of the Godhead bodily, And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are … BURIED WITH HIM IN BAPTISM, wherein also ye are risen with Him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised Him from the dead” (Col. 2:8-12). Ye are WASHED, ye are sanctified, ye are justified IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS, and by the Spirit of our God (1 Cor. 6:11). “Whatsoever ye do in word or deed, DO ALL IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS” (Col. 3:17). There is only ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, AND ONE BAPTISM (Eph. 4:5).
“Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:32)." Excerpt from, “The Truth About Matthew 28:19,” written by Eddie Jones.
I, SAID!!! Instead of obeying Jesus' command and continuing to baptize people in the name of Jesus, they instituted the practice of repeating the phrase He spoke in Matthew 28:19.
"Matthew 28:19 is NOT an example of believers being baptized; it is the commission of Christ that must be fulfilled. Jesus instructed to baptize IN THE NAME, which both Scripture and history proves to be JESUS...
Jesus clearly stated that we make the word of God of none effect if we follow the traditions of men (Mark 7:13). He emphasized, “In vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men” (Mat. 15:9). (Also see Gal. 1:8, 9; 2 Tim. 4:3, 4 Deut. 4:2; Rev. 22:18, 19.)
“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For IN HIM DWELLETH ALL the fullness of the Godhead bodily, And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are … BURIED WITH HIM IN BAPTISM, wherein also ye are risen with Him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised Him from the dead” (Col. 2:8-12). Ye are WASHED, ye are sanctified, ye are justified IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS, and by the Spirit of our God (1 Cor. 6:11). “Whatsoever ye do in word or deed, DO ALL IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS” (Col. 3:17). There is only ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, AND ONE BAPTISM (Eph. 4:5).
“Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:32)." Excerpt from, “The Truth About Matthew 28:19,” written by Eddie Jones.
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Most of the time in Acts they were baptized in the name of "Jesus Christ"; however, in Acts 19:5 they were baptized in the name of the "Lord Jesus." So which is it, which is right? Or are they both right? It seems like kind of a big deal; because if someone is going to get technical and say people should only get baptized in the name of Jesus or Jesus Christ, Acts 19:5 creates a problem.
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