Does the sovereignty of God nullify the grace of God?

[Cameron143]

If you can see how awful we can be by our worldly lusts, you should be able to see that in Romans 1 Paul is speaking to those that are called in verse 6. Man's decisions do not determine his eternal outcome. That would be eternal salvation by works, and that will not harmonize with the other scriptures.

I think I understand the verses. I just hadn't made this particular application before.

 

[John146]

He does allow mankind to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth, but their eternity is by God's grace, and if by grace, then it is not by woks.

Trusting in the d,b,r for sins is not a work of the law.

 

[Cameron143]

oh I see is this a doctrine of all Calvinists ?.

Or a doctrine made up by one Calvinist

I believe it is largely credited to Calvin, but the ideas aren't novel. He just put them together in a new and novel way.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I believe it is largely credited to Calvin, but the ideas aren't novel. He just put them together in a new and novel way.

John Calvin born 500 years ago ?

Is this how old the tulip doctrine is

 

[Cameron143]

John Calvin born 500 years ago ?

Is this how old the tulip doctrine is

Yup.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Yup.

so it was just invented by one person then, who is now dead.

I would be interested to know what modern day Calvinists think of this tulip doctrine.

 

[Cameron143]

so it was just invented by one person then, who is now dead.

I would be interested to know what modern day Calvinists think of this tulip doctrine.

If you really want to have some fun, ask people who disagree with Calvin what they think.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

If you really want to have some fun, ask people who disagree with Calvin what they think.

If you really want to have some fun, ask people who disagree with Calvin what they think.

I don't understand the who God chooses part,

Are the Calvinists saying God will not choose to save some people even before they've asked to be saved, because there dead in there sin,
They can not ask God to be saved. Because there dead in sin ?

And only the elect will be saved because there not as dead in sin as others.

Are we not all born dead in sin then ?

I don't get it

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

That is certainly the thought. Calvinists believe that God sovereignly elects some for salvation. Here is an example from C.H. Spurgeon:
"Charles Spurgeon tenaciously held to the doctrine of unconditional election. By necessity, this biblical truth flows from belief in human depravity. Because the will of man is utterly dead and cannot choose God, God must exercise His sovereign will to save. Out of the mass of fallen humanity, God made an eternal, distinguishing choice. Before the foundation of the world, He determined whom He would save. Spurgeon contended that were it not for God’s choice of His elect, none would be saved."
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/charles-spurgeon-calvinism-unconditional-election

If this were true then:
1. All mankind would be saved, since God desires the salvation of all men. the Bible is very clear about that.
2. If there were true then there would be no need for the Gospel, since the Gospel demands a response from those who hear it.
3. If this were true then Christ would not have died for the sins of the whole world, but only for the so-called "elect".
4. When Spurgeon preached the Gospel, he assumed that all his hearers could be saved, and also urged all his hearers to respond to the Gospel, thus nullifying his belief in divine election for salvation. Here is one example: 'Go not forth from this place to talk with idle gossip on thy way home. Go not forth to forget what manner of man thou art. But hasten to thy home; seek thy chamber; shut to the door; fall on thy face by thy bedside; confess thy sin; cry unto Jesus, tell him thou art a wretch undone without his sovereign grace, tell him thou has heard this morning that he came to save sinners, and that the thought of such a love as that hath made thee lay down the weapons of thy rebellion, and that thou art desirous to be his. There on thy face plead with him, and say unto him, "Lord save me, or I perish."'
https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/spurgeon_charles/sermons/0184.cfm

I'm sorry but that ideal makes God some cosmic Nazi that tells people to go left or right to find out their fate. The Bible doesn't teach it. It's horrific to me that anyone could read the Word and come away with that understanding.

 

[Magenta]

I believe it is largely credited to Calvin, but the ideas aren't novel. He just put them together in a new and novel way.

It is not credited to Calvin, but came out of the Synod/Canons of Dordt about a hundred
years after Calvin, which desired to counter Arminius, although it still was not yet T.U.L.I.P.
The first usage of that particular term was found to be in the 20th century.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

All of your arguments don't of necessity follow. For example, God has chosen to use the foolishness of preaching to save people. So whether election is true or not, the gospel needs to be preached.
Also, whether election is true or not, Spurgeon isn't omniscient or sovereign. He would have no way of knowing if someone was elect or not. So he would naturally exhort all his hearers to plead with God for salvation.

The Bible never says anywhere that you cannot respond, or you cannot be saved, it says you WOULD NOT. Always it is about choice. It would be the same as me nailing your foot to the floor then telling you to run. That is not the character of God.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

That's not what I'm saying at all. I never said the preaching of the gospel is necessary. I said God has chosen the gospel as the primary means of providing hearing to those who believe...Romans 10:17. But God isn't hamstrung by your limited imagination. John the Baptist was saved in the womb. I don't know what agency was employed by God to produce faith in him. It seems as though God did unilaterally save him.
So, for the second time...God can work in prescribed way or any other way He chooses to effect salvation. He is not limited or under any compunction to conform to anything other than that which His nature compels of Him. Since there is no limiting attribute of God to keep Him from saving people, He can save them any way He desires, even if He generally subscribes to a particular manner.

God is bound to His Word and He will not go against it. How could we ever trust Him if He did?

 

[Cameron143]

I don't understand the who God chooses part,

Are the Calvinists saying God will not choose to save some people even before they've asked to be saved, because there dead in there sin,
They can not ask God to be saved. Because there dead in sin ?

And only the elect will be saved because there not as dead in sin as others.

Are we not all born dead in sin then ?

I don't get it

At the risk of being pummeled I'll share with you a simple outline of what TULIP means.

Disclaimer: just providingg an understanding of TULIP, and NOT necessarily my personal beliefs.

Total depravity...as a result of sin, man is born spiritually dead and the effect of Adam's sin affected man's total being...heart, mind and will.
Unconditional election...salvation is solely based on the choice of God and made effectual by grace alone through faith.
Limited atonement...Jesus sacrificial work on the cross is sufficient for and applied only to those elected and saved at some point during their lifetimes.
Irresistible grace...those elected will of a certainty come to God in faith when His grace is made manifest to them.
Perseverance of the saints...those whom God saves will be preserved in the faith and will not fall away.

 

[Magenta]

The Bible never says anywhere that you cannot respond, or you cannot be saved, it says you WOULD NOT. Always it is about choice. It would be the same as me nailing your foot to the floor then telling you to run. That is not the character of God.

Scripture does say of the natural man... and that his heart needs to be turned from stone to flesh...

 

[Magenta]

At the risk of being pummeled I'll share with you a simple outline of what TULIP means.

Disclaimer: just providingg an understanding of TULIP, and NOT necessarily my personal beliefs.

Total depravity...as a result of sin, man is born spiritually dead and the effect of Adam's sin affected man's total being...heart, mind and will.
Unconditional election...salvation is solely based on the choice of God and made effectual by grace alone through faith.
Limited atonement...Jesus sacrificial work on the cross is sufficient for and applied only to those elected and saved at some point during their lifetimes.
Irresistible grace...those elected will of a certainty come to God in faith when His grace is made manifest to them.
Perseverance of the saints...those whom God saves will be preserved in the faith and will not fall away.

People argue against total depravity and inability but Scripture does teach that man
is naturally hostile to God, His enemy, and that God draws us with loving kindness.

Jesus’ words in John 6:65

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

The Bible never says anywhere that you cannot respond, or you cannot be saved, it says you WOULD NOT. Always it is about choice. It would be the same as me nailing your foot to the floor then telling you to run. That is not the character of God.

I can't understand it on one hand the Calvinists are saying once saved always saved for the elected, whom God chose to be saved.

But on the other hand there sayin never saved never chosen. Even if you ask

I need to understand who the elected are,

Are they saved before they where born or are they saved because even tho there born dead in there sin, and even tho they can't choose to ask to God To be saved either, God chooses to save them because there sin is less than others.

So if I'm correct does that mean even the elected have not asked to be saved.

And even if the elect do ask to be saved God will decide if he saves them

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Scripture does say of the natural man... and that his heart needs to be turned from stone to flesh...

Oh I agree we cannot understand the things of God until we are saved, but doesn't say we cannot respond to salvation. It's like a baby with his mother. He cannot understand at first what she is saying but he responds and knows his mother and her voice. The Bible says that we can find Him if we seek Him, we can reach out, we can respond. We are babies at first, we can't understand, but as we grow we will learn.

 

[Cameron143]

The Bible never says anywhere that you cannot respond, or you cannot be saved, it says you WOULD NOT. Always it is about choice. It would be the same as me nailing your foot to the floor then telling you to run. That is not the character of God.

I'm not disagreeing based on the character of God, but on the basis of the ways of God. For example, God has ordained that men should be saved through the foolishness of preaching. What does it matter if one believes in election or not? Wouldn't the gospel still need to be preached in both cases?

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

At the risk of being pummeled I'll share with you a simple outline of what TULIP means.

Disclaimer: just providingg an understanding of TULIP, and NOT necessarily my personal beliefs.

Total depravity...as a result of sin, man is born spiritually dead and the effect of Adam's sin affected man's total being...heart, mind and will.
Unconditional election...salvation is solely based on the choice of God and made effectual by grace alone through faith.
Limited atonement...Jesus sacrificial work on the cross is sufficient for and applied only to those elected and saved at some point during their lifetimes.
Irresistible grace...those elected will of a certainty come to God in faith when His grace is made manifest to them.
Perseverance of the saints...those whom God saves will be preserved in the faith and will not fall away.

Yeo but are they saying no one can ask to be saved because everyone is born dead to sin ?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I can't understand it on one hand the Calvinists are saying once saved always saved for the elected, whom God chose to be saved.

But on the other hand there sayin never saved never chosen. Even if you ask

I need to understand who the elected are,

Are they saved before they where born or are they saved because even tho there born dead in there sin, and even tho they can't choose to ask to God To be saved either, God chooses to save them because there sin is less than others.

So if I'm correct does that mean even the elected have not asked to be saved.

And even if the elect do ask to be saved God will decide if he saves them

It's a shoot yourself in the foot belief. They believe that the elect were chosen by God before they came to earth. Which is great news for them. But the others God chose for destruction. Not for any wrong that they had done, nor any sin they had committed. God simply God them to be the losers in the cosmic bingo of life. So that means that if you aren't one of the ones God has chosen you cannot be saved. No matter how much you repent, beg or flagellate yourself your out of luck because God chose your behind for hell. And that is 100% against what the Word teaches. I can give Scripture as long as your arm to prove that is wrong.