If Jesus died to redeem us from our sins, which he did, does it nullify the fact that we have been redeemed, just because we have not heard about it?
Does the sovereignty of God nullify the grace of God?
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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If Jesus died to redeem us from our sins, which he did, does it nullify the fact that we have been redeemed, just because we have not heard about it?
Hearing and understanding the gospel is a product of being born again. It is not the cause of being born again.
Babies who die in their youth are included in the elect of God who have the promise of an inheritance of everlasting life in heaven. The wicked prosper here on earth, and live to be old. (Psalms 73).
Only those who obey the Gospel are redeemed, even though Christ died for the sins of the whole world. That is the reason for Romans 10. Regarding unbelieving Jews, it says "but they have not all obeyed the Gospel". It also says this: 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
All must hear (or read in Scripture) that Christ died for their sins ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, and rose again for their justification ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES. That is exactly why the Lord said that the Gospel must go out into all the world and be preached to EVERY CREATURE.
Christ has been reigning over his kingdom, which is his church, ever sense he rose from the grave.
I do not agree with you on most of the interpretation of the scriptures, but this post I agree with, amen.
You are right that the word "sovereign" is not found in the scriptures, but it is implied (Dan 4:35) (Matt 28:18) (Dan 2:39)) (Zech 14:9) (John 17:2) (Rom 9:5) (Rom 10:12) (Rev 13:7).
Nice I’m 71 but again you and I have tried to discuss things many many many times and not a single time have we ever come to agreement
you have theories I don’t believe and I wuote scriptures you don’t accept
im too old to waste another moment arguing with you about two seperate belief systems you should also be too old to waste time arguing with someone who believes the biblical account of things and doesn’t read hypergracers books instead
It’s a waste of our time you should find other hypergracers to discuss with instead of arguing with me is all I’m saying we’ve tried many times friend arguing and bickering is a waste of time I’m too old for that it sounds like you are too though lol
Does grace nullify the sovereignty, or sovereignty nullify His grace?
Good question...
Grace is = undeserved favour.
Sovereignty = Supreme power and authority.
God how can God uphold the justice and laws which He has a duty to and be gracious to us at the same time.
To give us freedom from the law of sin and death and also give uphold those laws would seem impossible.
But God found a way.
He did not change or weaken those laws in any way. He paid the price in full on our behave and gave us freedom from the penalty.
Undeserved favour 100% and sovereignty in justice = 100%
Mercy and Justice
are perfectly meet at the cross.
The cross is the perfect solution for grace and sovereignty.
Good question...
Grace is = undeserved favour.
Sovereignty = Supreme power and authority.
God how can God uphold the justice and laws which He has a duty to and be gracious to us at the same time.
To give us freedom from the law of sin and death and also give uphold those laws would seem impossible.
But God found a way.
He did not change or weaken those laws in any way. He paid the price in full on our behave and gave us freedom from the penalty.
Undeserved favour 100% and sovereignty in justice = 100%
Mercy and Justice
are perfectly meet at the cross. The cross is the perfect solution for grace and sovereignty.
God sovereignly chose to extend His Grace to all mankind and sovereignly chose to give man free will. Not only that, but God is sovereign in exacting the consequences of our choices.
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
#1 The pronoun "you" is always the plural form in the King James. That means God was definitely speaking to that whole group.
#2 God let them know the consequences: "Life and death"
#3 God set those consequences "I have set before you life and death" "blessing and cursing"
#4. God's will was that they all "choose life".
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
#1 The pronoun "you" is always the plural form in the King James. That means God was definitely speaking to that whole group.
#2 God let them know the consequences: "Life and death"
#3 God set those consequences "I have set before you life and death" "blessing and cursing"
#4. God's will was that they all "choose life".
Amen and it Still remains the same he’s informed us in the gospel and called us to repentance and his Will is that we repent and don’t perish
“This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: that ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. ….But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. ( Jesus isn’t on a time clock )
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, ( he isn’t being slow to return ) as some men count slackness; but ( he’s giving us time to repent and come around because he doesnt want us to die ) is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:1-4, 8-9 KJV
We should choose life he’s made it freely available but if someone convices us we can never choose , it’s like cutting our roots at the base and we lose the power to choose
“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one,
but God is one.”
Galatians 3:19-20 KJV
“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.”
Exodus 23:20-21 KJV
“And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.”
Numbers 15:32, 35-36 KJV
that’s what it was like under the old covenant because of the ordination over the people after they worshipped the golden calf he specifically says “ obey him for he will not pardon your transgressions “
the law is of that ordination because of thier transgression worshipping the calf
Premarital sex is discovered of a woman before marriage
“But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.”
Deuteronomy 22:20-21 KJV
She wasn’t asked to repent of given that chance the law demands her death demands the sinners death , because it does not pardon transgression it only reveals sin and death there’s no grace in the angelic ordination it was added because of this
“This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: to whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt, saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.
Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices By the space of forty years in the wilderness?
Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, And the star of your god Remphan, Figures which ye made to worship them: And I will carry you away beyond Babylon.”
Acts 7:38-43 KJV
The law has the unforgiving disposition of angels upon it
“who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.”
Acts 7:53 KJV
The law wasn’t the father son and Holy Ghost who are one
It was God , an angel , and Moses to the children of Israel the angels dispostion is superimposed upon the people by God after they transgressed with the golden calf of Aaron
“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.”
2 Corinthians 6:1–2
1 And working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain—
2 for He says,
“At the acceptable time I listened to you,
And on the day of salvation I helped you.”
Behold, now is “the acceptable time,” behold, now is “the day
When I look at election due to the sovereignty of God it usually follows a life that has been changed and makes a factor in immediate lives that surround it. Hence parents pass it to children, grandchildren, generation after generation, friends and neighbors.
But Grace is very much like death bed experiences like the thief on the cross. They won't go onto and do a good work for God that allows others to learn about God. They typically give into God after a life of refusing God but in the end submit.
Clearly sovereignty and grace are not connected nor the same.
But Grace is very much like death bed experiences like the thief on the cross. They won't go onto and do a good work for God that allows others to learn about God. They typically give into God after a life of refusing God but in the end submit.
Clearly sovereignty and grace are not connected nor the same.
I see we both reject the doctrine of original sin, total depravity and total inability. Calvinists, on the other hand, if consistent, could nt argue as you are.