June 10th, 1967

[10-22-27]

Aren't our bodies supposed to be the temple of God? How about the antichrist residing in the hearts and minds of men via a mark in their right hands or foreheads, as the so-called vaccines are purported to enable?

Aren't our bodies supposed to be the temple of God? How about the antichrist residing in the hearts and minds of men via a mark in their right hands or foreheads, as the so-called vaccines are purported to enable?

Moses asked, "Aren't our bodies supposed to be the temple of God?" Yes!

You asked, "How about the antichrist residing in the hearts and minds of men via a mark in their right hands or foreheads, as the so-called vaccines are purported to enable?"

Depends on what you mean by reside. Will people be awed by him? yes. Will he able to convince people to follow him? yes. Will those who stand with him take his mark? Yes. Gangs today recognize their own members by certain tattoos. Hitler's SS carried a mark on their arm in order to recognize their own. And the antichrist's mark will be no different, only on a much larger scale.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Antichrist will meet his end there slain by the returning Lord. That is the END of Antichrist not the beginning as the pre-tribs teach.

I see you are engaging us 'pre-fibbers' again ♫ 😇 ↑

Don't be surprised if in the next 4 or 5 months you see two men dressed in sackcloth standing at the top of Mr. Moriah.

Precious friend, won't be a surprise to me, as I will already be residing in my
New home, God's Great GloryLand, because of Great GRACE Departure! ♫ 😇 ↑

May God Very Richly Encourage, Edify, And Comfort you, and Also our precious friend, @Evmur ♫ 😇 ↑

Amen.

 

[oyster67]

therefore after the trib Jesus comes to reign

Yes.

2nd coming is the rapture

We come down with Jesus and our white robes. We went up and received them before this, at the Pre-Trib Rapture. That is what the Bible says and that is why everything works out and fits together so well for Pre-Tribbers. Jesus has gone up to prepare a Wedding for us, not a Tribulation.


John 14:
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Revelation 19:
1And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.


And later in this same chapter we return back down with Him arrayed in our white robes and ready to rule and reign with Him on Earth for the next 1000 years.

 

[10-22-27]

I didn't ask about horns. But I would be interested in knowing if you believe the 2 witnesses could be symbolic?

NO!

 

[oyster67]

I didn't ask about horns. But I would be interested in knowing if you believe the 2 witnesses could be symbolic?

No. They actually doooo stuff.

 

[Cameron143]

No. They actually doooo stuff.

What do they do? To or for whom?

 

[JerryHernandez]

they are symbolic

 

[JerryHernandez]

https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/Revelation-Its-Grand-Climax-At-Hand/Reviving-the-Two-Witnesses/

 

[Cameron143]

they are symbolic

Symbolic of what or who?

 

[JerryHernandez]

In the Bible it takes two to bear witness. the fact that that there are two means that the testimony is correct.

 

[Evmur]

Yes.


We come down with Jesus and our white robes. We went up and received them before this, at the Pre-Trib Rapture. That is what the Bible says and that is why everything works out and fits together so well for Pre-Tribbers. Jesus has gone up to prepare a Wedding for us, not a Tribulation.


John 14:
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Revelation 19:
1And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.


And later in this same chapter we return back down with Him arrayed in our white robes and ready to rule and reign with Him on Earth for the next 1000 years.

No no that is Darby's "that day" nonsense, you will say you don't know Darby nevertheless it is his doctrine and his alone. Our coming in white robes is an entirely different event.

Darby insisted that the phrase "that day" used throughout the scripture must always apply to that great and terrible day when Jesus comes to judge the world. This theory has been disproven.

the "that day" spoken about in 2 Thess. refers to the coming of our Lord in the clouds and our going to meet Him. "that day will not come unless there has come a falling away and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition"

You will see that there are two resurrections to come, first we who belong to Christ and then after the 1, 000 years the general resurrection unto judgement.

The way pre tribbers have it they make Paul to say
"Now brethren concerning the rapture, that day will not come unless there is first been a rapture" [paraphrased] doesn't make an atom of sense.

Darby KNEW it didn't make sense, I'm afraid Darby was not very honest. So he made up this doctrine about "that day" meaning the last resurrection. Just like he made up the doctrine that falling away means "departure"

... not a nice man Darby.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

I'm afraid Darby was not very honest.

Good thing we don't know/listen to these types, eh? But we do listen
To God's Pure/Preserved Word, and Are:

Brain - "Washed By The Water Of The Word," eh? ♫ 😇 ↑

 

[Cameron143]

Good thing we don't know/listen to these types, eh? But we do listen
To God's Pure/Preserved Word, and Are:

Brain - "Washed By The Water Of The Word," eh? ♫ 😇 ↑

You have some of the funniest and wittiest phrases. I loved...pre-fibbers yesterday. Brain-washed by the water of the Word...is very clever.

 

[Kroogz]

the "that day" spoken about in 2 Thess. refers to the coming of our Lord in the clouds and our going to meet Him. "that day will not come unless there has come a falling away and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition"

Something to consider. "a falling away" is a noun. And with the definite article "the." So it describes an event.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The Apostasy........What would it be called if every believer on this planet was raptured out? Only unbelievers left on the planet?......THE apostasy.

 

[Kroogz]

No no that is Darby's "that day" nonsense, you will say you don't know Darby nevertheless it is his doctrine and his alone. Our coming in white robes is an entirely different event.

Darby insisted that the phrase "that day" used throughout the scripture must always apply to that great and terrible day when Jesus comes to judge the world. This theory has been disproven.

the "that day" spoken about in 2 Thess. refers to the coming of our Lord in the clouds and our going to meet Him. "that day will not come unless there has come a falling away and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition"

You will see that there are two resurrections to come, first we who belong to Christ and then after the 1, 000 years the general resurrection unto judgement.

The way pre tribbers have it they make Paul to say
"Now brethren concerning the rapture, that day will not come unless there is first been a rapture" [paraphrased] doesn't make an atom of sense.

Darby KNEW it didn't make sense, I'm afraid Darby was not very honest. So he made up this doctrine about "that day" meaning the last resurrection. Just like he made up the doctrine that falling away means "departure"

... not a nice man Darby.

Interesting sermon notes from 450 to 600 AD........

Here’s the text of De fine mundi, as given by Caspari. I have placed the key words in bold.

Omnes enim sancti et electi Dei, ante tribulationem quae uentura est, colliguntur et ad Dominum adsumuntur, ne quando uideant confusionem, quae uniuersum propter peccata nostra obruet mundum.


For all the saints and elect of God, prior to the tribulation that is to come, are gathered and are taken [up] to the Lord, lest they see the confusion, that will overwhelm the whole world because of our sins.

But the text given by Verhelst (p.524, l.36-39) is different:

Omnes enim sancti et electi Dei, ante tribulationem quae uentura est, colliguntur et a Domino adsumentur, ne quando uideant confusionem, quae uniuersum propter peccata nostra obruit mundum.

https://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog...passage-and-its-greek-origins/comment-page-1/

For all the saints and elect of God, prior to the tribulation that is to come, are gathered and will be taken by the Lord, lest they see the confusion, that will overwhelm the whole world because of our sins.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Interesting sermon notes from 450 to 600 AD........

Here’s the text of De fine mundi, as given by Caspari. I have placed the key words in bold.

Omnes enim sancti et electi Dei, ante tribulationem quae uentura est, colliguntur et ad Dominum adsumuntur, ne quando uideant confusionem, quae uniuersum propter peccata nostra obruet mundum.


For all the saints and elect of God, prior to the tribulation that is to come, are gathered and are taken [up] to the Lord, lest they see the confusion, that will overwhelm the whole world because of our sins.

But the text given by Verhelst (p.524, l.36-39) is different:

Omnes enim sancti et electi Dei, ante tribulationem quae uentura est, colliguntur et a Domino adsumentur, ne quando uideant confusionem, quae uniuersum propter peccata nostra obruit mundum.

https://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog...passage-and-its-greek-origins/comment-page-1/

For all the saints and elect of God, prior to the tribulation that is to come, are gathered and will be taken by the Lord, lest they see the confusion, that will overwhelm the whole world because of our sins.

I read the full sermon. What this tells me is:

1) That the end times prophecies weren't fully fulfilled in 70AD and every generation since then really did think that end times was going to happen in their generation. The sermon writer was completely wrong, but it was still pretty fascinating how the sermon writer was able to read prophecies of the end times into what was going on in his generation.

2) Grant Jeffrey who translated this sermon is a pre-tribber so keep that in mind.

3) Even if this sermon might be evidence that pre-trib teaching existed earlier, it's STILL WRONG. False teaching about the end times already started during Paul's time, so nothing new here.


🍑

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

I read the full sermon. What this tells me is:

1) That the end times prophecies weren't fully fulfilled in 70AD and every generation since then really did think that end times was going to happen in their generation. The sermon writer was completely wrong, but it was still pretty fascinating how the sermon writer was able to read prophecies of the end times into what was going on in his generation.

2) Grant Jeffrey who translated this sermon is a pre-tribber so keep that in mind.

3) Even if this sermon might be evidence that pre-trib teaching existed earlier, it's STILL WRONG. False teaching about the end times already started during Paul's time, so nothing new here.


🍑

I'm still reading the sermon and it seems to imply that there will still be Christians on earth who will flee into hiding (in the desert) during the Great Tribulation. Hmm.... I don't think it's as cut and dried as the translator wants it be.


🍑

 

[Kroogz]

I read the full sermon. What this tells me is:

1) That the end times prophecies weren't fully fulfilled in 70AD and every generation since then really did think that end times was going to happen in their generation. The sermon writer was completely wrong, but it was still pretty fascinating how the sermon writer was able to read prophecies of the end times into what was going on in his generation.

2) Grant Jeffrey who translated this sermon is a pre-tribber so keep that in mind.

3) Even if this sermon might be evidence that pre-trib teaching existed earlier, it's STILL WRONG. False teaching about the end times already started during Paul's time, so nothing new here.


🍑

We can take it as we want. However, the teaching was around before Darby.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The way pre tribbers have it they make Paul to say
"Now brethren concerning the rapture, that day will not come unless there is first been a rapture" [paraphrased] doesn't make an atom of sense.

No, pre-tribbers do NOT say such a thing. You've misunderstood.



Notice a few things:

--the underlined portion ^ is indeed verse 1's Subject;


--but then you have completely LEFT OUT verse 2, which is the part where Paul is addressing the "FALSE CLAIM" of the false claimants "purporting that the Day of the Lord [THE TRIBULATION PERIOD] IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [perfect indicative]"...; By leaving THIS VERSE COMPLETELY OUT OF YOUR SENTENCE [DON'T DO THAT!!], you *change* the meaning Paul is conveying, to say something else entirely [DON'T DO THAT! ];


--THEN Paul, in verse 3, explains why THAT IS NOT SO (it is NOT SO that "the day of the Lord is present")... by saying, "that day will not be present, if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE [noun] *FIRST* [that's Paul's verse 1 Subject (also noun)] and [distinctly and consequently] the man of sin be revealed...".

(And note, he is "revealed" at Seal #1 at the START of the future Trib yrs, not at its MIDDLE [when he will do the "sitteth in the temple of God" thing LATER, v.4b]; This is proven by the very words Paul wrote in his first epistle to them, in 1Th5:1-3 [re: the INTIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"--which he says "the day of the Lord" will ARRIVE "exactly like [G5618 - hosper]"--that's Seal #1--OF the very "beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus had spoken of... Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "A CERTAIN ONE [G5100 - tis - 'a certain one' BRINGING DECEPTION]"<--the first of the "birth PANGS" that Jesus listed)].);


SO, the sentence would NOT say as you've suggested, but rather,

"THE TRIBULATION PERIOD/DOTL will not be present if not [/unless] shall have come THE RAPTURE/DEPARTURE *FIRST* and...


Pretribbers (such as myself) are NOT suggesting the word "RAPTURE" is used TWICE in verse 3, as you've stated we are.

That simply is not true, and a skewing of what has actually been explained numerous times.

Darby KNEW it didn't make sense, I'm afraid Darby was not very honest. So he made up this doctrine about "that day" meaning the last resurrection. Just like he made up the doctrine that falling away means "departure"

... not a nice man Darby.

John Darby did not believe that, as I've mentioned to you in past posts...

...he viewed that Greek word (apostasia) the very same way that you do, as I pointed out to you from his commentary on 2 Thess 2 - see this in the fifth paragraph at link - https://biblehub.com/commentaries/darby/2_thessalonians/2.htm

[quoting from his commentary here, fifth paragraph down]:

"In the second place, the already known fact is asserted, that the apostacy must previously take place, and then the man of sin be revealed. Solemn truth! Everything takes its place. The forms and the name of Christianity have long been maintained; true Christians have been disowned; but now there should be a public renunciation of the faith an apostacy."

- John N Darby

[end quoting JND]



uh, who...........?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I'm afraid Darby was not very honest. So he made up this doctrine about "that day" meaning the last resurrection.

No, he did not. He never said such a thing.



Where are you getting these ideas from (that he ever said such)?? Not from Darby or his writings, because he didn't say such a thing.



[why are people "liking" these unsubstantiated [false] claims, as though they are true? ]