TEMPLE......TO BE OR NOT TO BE....THAT IS MY QUESTION!!!!!
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How do you expect anyone to understand all this and then totally know what it means.
And then what exactly ?
If they don't there a heretic and now your expecting Cameron to picture Jesus as having seven horns
In heaven the lamb seven horns represents his perfect power and the seven eyes represents the holy spirits perfect vision
You have one major ego in this topic you really do
This topic is un- decided by every Christian there is and you want to make this topic something to accuse people of heresy with.
Or insult there intelligence with.
How many people believe they will be here for the great tribulation.
Or how many believe there's been loads of major rapture events already.
He's discussing his views in a topic that's open to interpretation.
Get over it. If his ideas are different to your.
I believe he's told many truths not lies,
Your still yet to say what exactly his heresy is.
And no doubt you won't.
Because you know your wrong right.
And then what exactly ?
If they don't there a heretic and now your expecting Cameron to picture Jesus as having seven horns
In heaven the lamb seven horns represents his perfect power and the seven eyes represents the holy spirits perfect vision
You have one major ego in this topic you really do
This topic is un- decided by every Christian there is and you want to make this topic something to accuse people of heresy with.
Or insult there intelligence with.
How many people believe they will be here for the great tribulation.
Or how many believe there's been loads of major rapture events already.
He's discussing his views in a topic that's open to interpretation.
Get over it. If his ideas are different to your.
I believe he's told many truths not lies,
Your still yet to say what exactly his heresy is.
And no doubt you won't.
Because you know your wrong right.
There is alot to the book of Revelation and I certainly don't know all there is to know. But establishing a time frame and a purpose is a good place to begin. It's my opinion so no real value, but people are actually reading the word of God and rather than accepting what it says and fit the history to it, are looking at history and seeing where the word of God fits in.
And I know we disagree at times but I'm always blessed by the tenor of our discussions.
And I know we disagree at times but I'm always blessed by the tenor of our discussions.
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I know about the events first because they are spoken of in the word of God. If not for the covenant ending, the destruction of Israel would not have happened. All this is recorded in the Bible. And it was foretold in the Bible as to when...in the time of the 4th kingdom...Daniel. Armed with these scriptures, I look to events given in that time frame. If only there were some event in that time frame that looked like judgment on a nation in covenant with God. Hmmmm...any ideas.
Since 70 A.D, is Lord Jesus RIGHT NOW ruling over ALL of the GENTILE NATIONS with a rod of iron from His throne in Jerusalem, dispensing the law from Zion, in collaboration with the 12 Apostles who are themselves sitting upon their thrones, bringing swift justice to all the world?
Not so you would notice.
At 70 A.D. did the Lord Jesus return so that every eye will see Him, including His enemies, whom He went go to war against and vanquished ALL OF THEM, an innumerable host, in order to Glorify Himself in the eyes of Israel and the world?
Not that you would notice.
So what exactly is this patently false eschatology that @Cameron143 promoting? An heresy? A fantasy? Or something else?
Not so you would notice.
At 70 A.D. did the Lord Jesus return so that every eye will see Him, including His enemies, whom He went go to war against and vanquished ALL OF THEM, an innumerable host, in order to Glorify Himself in the eyes of Israel and the world?
Not that you would notice.
So what exactly is this patently false eschatology that @Cameron143 promoting? An heresy? A fantasy? Or something else?
You are living in the parable of the fig tree generation that will witness Jesus's coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
amen I see lord of your intention now , so I understand what your saying more and why . I didn’t but read through what you have been saying more thoroughly and I can see the parrying happening and why your trying to establish what you are
it’s important to understand that revelation isnt one continuos vision in order tonindersrsnd what’s happening and when bear with me brother for a moment
An example
“And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: and she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
Revelation 12:1-5 KJV
This isnt about any sort of timeline is my position ( only my position and thought doesn’t mean I’m right ) but rather it’s giving us an understanding or “ revelation “ about what we’ve read in the Bible.
israel meaning the original clan of Israel the seventy who were led into Egypt by God during the famine are seen in a dream had by Joseph. Israel is seen as the sun , moon and 12 stars being jacob his wife and 12 sons Along with thier families who were led into goshen during the great famine.
israel was promised for hundreds of years that a sin would be born who would be the Christ God manifest in the flesh and he would sit at the right hand of God on his throne util all his enemies were made his footstool
they were given promises like this many more about the son but for this part of revelation
israel was waiting for a man child to be. Oen who would rule all nations with a rod of iron
“Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. ( Gods heavenly kingdom see Hebrews 12: 22-28)
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. ( Jesus baptism )
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. ( Matthew 28:18-20 )
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: Be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, And rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, When his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
Psalm 2:6-12 KJV
So let’s look at revelation 12 there that short section
“And there appeared a great wonder in heaven;
a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: and she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered( israel was expecting a son to be born and was having birth pains )
“And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. “
Satan and his angels came and tried to destroy this male child she was expecting to be born . Remember what happened when Jesus was born ?
Herod tried to kill him remember how he schemed and tried to trick the wise men into revealing Jesus location ? later Jesus family was warned in a dream to flee into Egypt because Herod was trying to destroy the messiah he ends up ordering the slaughter of Rachel’s children in prophecy causing her great wailing trying to kill Jesus
then notice Satan is the one trying to tempt Jesus and destroy his mission and lead him astray and bribe him to not serve Gods Will ? Note that the Pharisees and Sadducee’s and priests and scribes constetly were trying to trap Jesus in some word and accuse him at the law ?
And how Satan entered Judas iscariot when he sent Jesus to the cross by betrayal not as well how the Old Testament says almost nothing about demon possession and evil spirits wreaking havoc but it’s prevelent when Jesus is on earth and Satan is trying to destroy him and his mission
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
Revelation 12:1-5 K
then notice after the gospel when Jesus was born to israel and Satan tries to destroy him how the gospel concludes
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
Mark 16:19 KJV
The time references ar by looking and seeing what happened and when there’s never going to be a different sin a different messiah who’s caught up into heaven to rule all nations this has already happened if we’ve read the Bible especially the nt events of Christ in earth
Do you see what I’m saying ? I’m not good at explaining things but reading some of what your saying I feel like you might understand what I mean we can do this with the Bible and revelation throughout the book beginning at chapter 5 , but some things haven’t yet happened because they are prophecies to happen when Jesus returns and the world ends with fire and destruction suddenly like in the days of Noah when the people were so disconnected with god only the ones who were saved by grace and through faith survived
much of revelation is about then and only israel but some is about after that until Jesus returns and judges the earth
i think finding time frames for each seperate vision would be possible but chapter 5 is a seperate vision from 12 is what I’m saying 12 is about Israel’s plight and promised messiah being born and caught up to heaven the. The war that happened after Christ was seated it seems Satan entered the kingdom and there was a war between Jesus angels and satans who lost and was barred eternally from the heavenly realms but was allowed to enter the earthly until he ends that part also.
until then we see throw war that Satan is waging against this group
“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
Revelation 12:17 KJV
This is the early church the remnant of Israel who escapees the judgement because they believed the messiah .
which also if we had space and time we could look back at those prophecies of the remnant who he would make Crown Jewels in his eternal kingdom
But what I’m poorly trying to say is revelationnosnt one co to our vision where a timeline will be possible through the whole book it’s showing subject matter in the form of a vision of figures and phrases from the rest of the Bible which you already understand most of what I’m saying
timelimes exist within the subject matter as well is what I’m saying if we look to the subject matter the timeline is revealed when was Jesus taken up to heaven ?
Look at this and consider revelation 12 what is shouted from heaven after the serpent is cast out
“And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.”
Luke 10:18-20 KJV
i really do have a point in there somewhere lol
it’s important to understand that revelation isnt one continuos vision in order tonindersrsnd what’s happening and when bear with me brother for a moment
An example
“And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: and she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
Revelation 12:1-5 KJV
This isnt about any sort of timeline is my position ( only my position and thought doesn’t mean I’m right ) but rather it’s giving us an understanding or “ revelation “ about what we’ve read in the Bible.
israel meaning the original clan of Israel the seventy who were led into Egypt by God during the famine are seen in a dream had by Joseph. Israel is seen as the sun , moon and 12 stars being jacob his wife and 12 sons Along with thier families who were led into goshen during the great famine.
israel was promised for hundreds of years that a sin would be born who would be the Christ God manifest in the flesh and he would sit at the right hand of God on his throne util all his enemies were made his footstool
they were given promises like this many more about the son but for this part of revelation
israel was waiting for a man child to be. Oen who would rule all nations with a rod of iron
“Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. ( Gods heavenly kingdom see Hebrews 12: 22-28)
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. ( Jesus baptism )
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. ( Matthew 28:18-20 )
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: Be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, And rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, When his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
Psalm 2:6-12 KJV
So let’s look at revelation 12 there that short section
“And there appeared a great wonder in heaven;
a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: and she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered( israel was expecting a son to be born and was having birth pains )
“And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. “
Satan and his angels came and tried to destroy this male child she was expecting to be born . Remember what happened when Jesus was born ?
Herod tried to kill him remember how he schemed and tried to trick the wise men into revealing Jesus location ? later Jesus family was warned in a dream to flee into Egypt because Herod was trying to destroy the messiah he ends up ordering the slaughter of Rachel’s children in prophecy causing her great wailing trying to kill Jesus
then notice Satan is the one trying to tempt Jesus and destroy his mission and lead him astray and bribe him to not serve Gods Will ? Note that the Pharisees and Sadducee’s and priests and scribes constetly were trying to trap Jesus in some word and accuse him at the law ?
And how Satan entered Judas iscariot when he sent Jesus to the cross by betrayal not as well how the Old Testament says almost nothing about demon possession and evil spirits wreaking havoc but it’s prevelent when Jesus is on earth and Satan is trying to destroy him and his mission
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
Revelation 12:1-5 K
then notice after the gospel when Jesus was born to israel and Satan tries to destroy him how the gospel concludes
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
Mark 16:19 KJV
The time references ar by looking and seeing what happened and when there’s never going to be a different sin a different messiah who’s caught up into heaven to rule all nations this has already happened if we’ve read the Bible especially the nt events of Christ in earth
Do you see what I’m saying ? I’m not good at explaining things but reading some of what your saying I feel like you might understand what I mean we can do this with the Bible and revelation throughout the book beginning at chapter 5 , but some things haven’t yet happened because they are prophecies to happen when Jesus returns and the world ends with fire and destruction suddenly like in the days of Noah when the people were so disconnected with god only the ones who were saved by grace and through faith survived
much of revelation is about then and only israel but some is about after that until Jesus returns and judges the earth
i think finding time frames for each seperate vision would be possible but chapter 5 is a seperate vision from 12 is what I’m saying 12 is about Israel’s plight and promised messiah being born and caught up to heaven the. The war that happened after Christ was seated it seems Satan entered the kingdom and there was a war between Jesus angels and satans who lost and was barred eternally from the heavenly realms but was allowed to enter the earthly until he ends that part also.
until then we see throw war that Satan is waging against this group
“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
Revelation 12:17 KJV
This is the early church the remnant of Israel who escapees the judgement because they believed the messiah .
which also if we had space and time we could look back at those prophecies of the remnant who he would make Crown Jewels in his eternal kingdom
But what I’m poorly trying to say is revelationnosnt one co to our vision where a timeline will be possible through the whole book it’s showing subject matter in the form of a vision of figures and phrases from the rest of the Bible which you already understand most of what I’m saying
timelimes exist within the subject matter as well is what I’m saying if we look to the subject matter the timeline is revealed when was Jesus taken up to heaven ?
Look at this and consider revelation 12 what is shouted from heaven after the serpent is cast out
“And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.”
Luke 10:18-20 KJV
i really do have a point in there somewhere lol
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There's something sitting right in front of all our faces in 2 Thess. 2 that most of us might never see because for the most part when we are looking at 2 Thess. 2 we are debating the issue of past/future positions in eschatology... Anyway so we have these Thessalonians who are confused about something to do with them being shaken in mind that the Day of the Lord had already past(they were I suppose afraid they had missed the rapture)... So in a very similar mind set as today they were seeing different timings on certain fulfillment's of prophecy. The part though that catches my eye is that Paul doesn't call the Thessalonians heretics or treat them as outcast but instead even though they misunderstood eschatology he calls them "brothers",,verse 1,,, "brothers beloved,,,chosen ect." verse 13,,, "brothers" verse 15,,,, Anyway I thought I would point out that we may today see some who understand differently even as far as them being an enemy but it doesn't match how Paul viewed the Thessalonians. https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2.htm
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Good grief man of course Paul is not calling the VICTIMS of the heresy heretics!
However, it is those who INVENTED and were PROMULGATING the "false report" that were the guilty parties, the heretics.
2Th 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means......!
Do we have persons on this thread who are likewise promulgating the very same false report that the RAPTURE HAS ALREADY OCCURRED?
YES WE DO. Beyond a shadow of a doubt we do.
Its all there on the record in black and white man.
For pity sake wake up everybody and stop coddling and entertaining the heretics! PLEASE!
However, it is those who INVENTED and were PROMULGATING the "false report" that were the guilty parties, the heretics.
2Th 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means......!
Do we have persons on this thread who are likewise promulgating the very same false report that the RAPTURE HAS ALREADY OCCURRED?
YES WE DO. Beyond a shadow of a doubt we do.
Its all there on the record in black and white man.
For pity sake wake up everybody and stop coddling and entertaining the heretics! PLEASE!
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So then it's apparent that in the 1st century AD there were other men writing letters/Gospels or teaching "by any means" and the Apostles knew the Thessalonians,Galatians ect. were hearing these teachings and that some of them were falling victim to it but were still seen as beloved brothers? Do you think they were reading 3 Corinthians or the Gospel of the Hebrews? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Epistle_to_the_Corinthians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Gospel_hypothesis
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