Works and Salvation

[Soyeong]

There is a sense of works that we are required to have done first in order to earn something as a wage that is different from the sense of works that are intrinsically required to have the experience of doing something. For example, there is a difference between work that someone is required to have done first to earn a wage to pay for the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour and the work of driving it that is intrinsically required to have that experience. The opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour can also be given as a gift that requires someone to do the work to have that experience, but where that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to have that experience as a wage.

While there are many verse like Romans 4:1-5 that speak against works being required to earn our justification/righteousness/salvation/eternal life as a wage in the first sense, there are many verses like Hebrews 5:9 support that they require us to be doers of works in the second sense. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we are not required to have first obeyed it in order to earn our salvation as a wage, having the experience of living in obedience to it is intrinsically the content of the gift of Jesus saving us from having the experience of not living in obedience to it. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us how to have the experience doing those works is intrinsically the content of His gift of saving us having the experience of not doing those works.

In other words, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of His law is His instructions for how to have that experience (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23), not for how to earn eternal life as a wage.

 

[Dino246]

You've done a marvelous job of confusing a simple issue.

Here's the simple version:

We don't get saved by our own effort, period.

Once we are saved, we are empowered by the Holy Spirit to participate in the work of the kingdom.

 

[NightTwister]

There is a sense of works that we are required to have done first in order to earn something as a wage that is different from the sense of works that are intrinsically required to have the experience of doing something. For example, there is a difference between work that someone is required to have done first to earn a wage to pay for the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour and the work of driving it that is intrinsically required to have that experience. The opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour can also be given as a gift that requires someone to do the work to have that experience, but where that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to have that experience as a wage.

While there are many verse like Romans 4:1-5 that speak against works being required to earn our justification/righteousness/salvation/eternal life as a wage in the first sense, there are many verses like Hebrews 5:9 support that they require us to be doers of works in the second sense. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we are not required to have first obeyed it in order to earn our salvation as a wage, having the experience of living in obedience to it is intrinsically the content of the gift of Jesus saving us from having the experience of not living in obedience to it. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us how to have the experience doing those works is intrinsically the content of His gift of saving us having the experience of not doing those works.

In other words, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of His law is His instructions for how to have that experience (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23), not for how to earn eternal life as a wage.

Keep working. Maybe you'll do just enough to get there. Or not.

 

[wattie]

It's a free gift, salvation. Not by works. And it's not owned by us, but by Jesus.

'Work out your own salvation, with fear and trembling '...the context of this is Acts of service to God after having been given eternal life. It is the salvation of life..not the spirit.

It's a salvaged life...rather than initially being given eternal life.

Sowing to the Spirit and not the flesh after receiving eternal life.

If a believer has eternal life.. then works have nothing to do with it. John 5:24 and 3:16

What about Romans 5:8? The rest of the book of John?

This has been well and truly thrashed to death. Sooooo many threads on this .

This is about Jesus' deity and full atonement for sin, our justification by Him. Get this mixed up and I'd question what you believed to begin with.

 

[Soyeong]

You've done a marvelous job of confusing a simple issue.

Here's the simple version:

We don't get saved by our own effort, period.

I denied three times that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works, you've done a marvelous job of missing my point. God teaching us how to have to experience doing good works is intrinsically the content of His gift of saving us from having the experience of not doing good works, which has nothing to do with trying to earn salvation from God through our own efforts.

Once we are saved, we are empowered by the Holy Spirit to participate in the work of the kingdom.

In Titus 2:11-13, it does not say that once we have first been saved, then we will do good works as the result, but rather it describes the content of God's gift of salvation as being trained by grace to do good works.

 

[Soyeong]

Keep working. Maybe you'll do just enough to get there. Or not.

I denied there time that we are required to earn our salvation as the results of our works, so doing good works as nothing to do with trying to do enough to get there.

 

[Soyeong]

It's a free gift, salvation. Not by works. And it's not owned by us, but by Jesus.

In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denied that that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, doing good works is nevertheless intrinsically part of our salvation from not doing good works.

The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, again, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires someone to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work has nothing to do with trying to earn the gift the opportunity to drive it as a wage. Likewise, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience, not for how to earn eternal life as a wage (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23).

'Work out your own salvation, with fear and trembling '...the context of this is Acts of service to God after having been given eternal life. It is the salvation of life..not the spirit.

It's a salvaged life...rather than initially being given eternal life.

Sowing to the Spirit and not the flesh after receiving eternal life.

If a believer has eternal life.. then works have nothing to do with it. John 5:24 and 3:16

There are many verses that support that the way to have eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, such as Deuteronomy 30:11-16, Deuteronomy 32:46-47, Proverbs 3:18, Proverbs 6:23, Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28, Romans 2:6-7, Romans 6:19-23, and Revelation 22:14, and there are many verses like John 3:16 and 5:24 that say that the way to have internal life is by believing in Jesus, which means that God's commandments are His instructions for how to believe in Jesus, which is also why there are many other verses that connect our belief in God with our obedience to him.

What about Romans 5:8? The rest of the book of John?

What about them?

This has been well and truly thrashed to death. Sooooo many threads on this .

This is about Jesus' deity and full atonement for sin, our justification by Him. Get this mixed up and I'd question what you believed to begin with.

Indeed, there has been much discussion on this topic, so I would not have started a thread on it if I did not think that I was raising an important distinction that resolves this issue.

 

[Dino246]

God teaching us how to have to experience doing good works is intrinsically the content of His gift of saving us from having the experience of not doing good works, which has nothing to do with trying to earn salvation from God through our own efforts.

Meaningless bafflegab. Did you major in obfuscation?

In Titus 2:11-13, it does not say that once we have first been saved, then we will do good works as the result, but rather it describes the content of God's gift of salvation as being trained by grace to do good works.

What was my second statement in my post above?

 

[Soyeong]

Meaningless bafflegab. Did you major in obfuscation?


What was my second statement in my post above?

How about addressing the content of what I said in the OP instead of ignoring everything that I've said?

 

[Dino246]

How about addressing the content of what I said in the OP?

I did. I presented it in a simple, biblically-sound manner in my first post.

 

[Soyeong]

I did. I presented it in a simple, biblically-sound manner in my first post.

No, you ignored what I said and made a point that I made three times in the OP.

 

[Kroogz]

There is a sense of works that we are required to have done first in order to earn something as a wage that is different from the sense of works that are intrinsically required to have the experience of doing something. For example, there is a difference between work that someone is required to have done first to earn a wage to pay for the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour and the work of driving it that is intrinsically required to have that experience. The opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour can also be given as a gift that requires someone to do the work to have that experience, but where that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to have that experience as a wage.

While there are many verse like Romans 4:1-5 that speak against works being required to earn our justification/righteousness/salvation/eternal life as a wage in the first sense, there are many verses like Hebrews 5:9 support that they require us to be doers of works in the second sense. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we are not required to have first obeyed it in order to earn our salvation as a wage, having the experience of living in obedience to it is intrinsically the content of the gift of Jesus saving us from having the experience of not living in obedience to it. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us how to have the experience doing those works is intrinsically the content of His gift of saving us having the experience of not doing those works.

In other words, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of His law is His instructions for how to have that experience (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23), not for how to earn eternal life as a wage.

Thank God the Lord Jesus Christ made salvation easy to understand. I would be going straight to hell if I had to figure this mess out.

 

[Dino246]

No, you ignored what I said and made a point that I made three times in the OP.

Your OP was word salad. I'm not intending to be unkind, but it was really convoluted and cried out for editing.

 

[Soyeong]

Thank God the Lord Jesus Christ made salvation easy to understand. I would be going straight to hell if I had to figure this mess out.

Indeed, our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so living in obedience to it is the way that God saves us from not living in obedience to it.

 

[Dino246]

Indeed, our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so living in obedience to it is the way that God saves us from not living in obedience to it.

Circular reasoning much?

By that logic, us not jumping off a cliff is the way God saves us from jumping off a cliff.

Care to rethink?

 

[Soyeong]

Your OP was word salad. I'm not intending to be unkind, but it was really convoluted and cried out for editing.

We both know that is a lie. If your intention was not to be disruptive or unkind, then you could have asked me to clarify something you didn't understand.

 

[Dino246]

We both know that is a lie. If your intention was not to be disruptive or unkind, then you could have asked me to clarify something you didn't understand.

I did understand it, and saw the errors, despite the convolutions. Most people aren't going to bother wading through your bafflegab, so I simplified the message and corrected it.

 

[Kroogz]

Indeed, our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so living in obedience to it is the way that God saves us from not living in obedience to it.

Chasing our tails with our logic while sweaten to the oldies?

I will stick with Acts 16:31.

 

[Soyeong]

Circular reasoning much?

By that logic, us not jumping off a cliff is the way God saves us from jumping off a cliff.

Care to rethink?

No, that is not circular reasoning. Circular reason is if the only reason to believe a premise is if you already believe the conclusion. The way to save someone from living in sin is by leading them to refrain from living in sin. That's not circular, but rather that is what it means for God to save someone from living in sin. Likewise, if you prevent someone from jumping off a cliff, then you have saved them from doing that. God leading us to honoring our parents is the way that He saves us from not honoring our parents.

I did understand it, and saw the errors, despite the convolutions. Most people aren't going to bother wading through your bafflegab, so I simplified the message and corrected it.

More smoke to obfuscate your intent to be disruptive to this thread and your refusal to address the OP.

 

[Soyeong]

Chasing our tails with our logic while sweaten to the oldies?

I will stick with Acts 16:31.

Of course, then there is the issue of what exactly it means to believe in the Lord Jesus. Our good works testify about God's goodness, which is why they bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying God's goodness we are expressing the belief that He is good. So the way that we live expresses what we believe to be true about God. The way to believe that God is by doing what is just, the way to believe that God is holy is by following His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. This is also why there are many verses that connect our belief in God with our obedience to him, such as in James 2:18, where he would show his faith by his works.