TEMPLE......TO BE OR NOT TO BE....THAT IS MY QUESTION!!!!!

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TheDivineWatermark

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And vs 4 - 14 [Mt24] are events which will come before any of these [AOD & GT] events take place.

Those events did not take place between the time jesus spoke these words and AD 70.. Just another reason to reject the view it has already happened
Correct.

Because vv.4-8 ^ are "the beginning of birth pangs,"

...and Lk21:12 informs that the events surrounding "70ad" (vv.12-24a,b) must take place "BEFORE ALL THESE [ / BEFORE ALL these 'beginning of birth pangs' that vv.8-11 (Lk21) had just described! (parallel Mt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8)]"...

This means that the beginning of birth pangs are NOT what lead up to the events surrounding 70ad (as tho the "70ad events" were the culmination-point), as many suppose.
 

iamsoandso

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My point is, IF Revelation was written PRIOR to the events surrounding "70ad" (as many suppose), why does this passage express this?

"[when they behold] the beast that was, and IS NOT, and yet SHALL BE [future tense]"










[rather than having been written in/around 95ad; which a 95ad writing would corroborate perfectly with what Matthew 22:7 (about the 70ad events) and then Matthew 22:8's "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" sequence also demonstrates (see Rev1:1[7:4]'s wording)]

Yep Rev. 17:7+ is as if the angel is telling us all exactly what time it is in the Biblical timeline.. the 7th,8th and the ten cannot be destroyed in ad70 if they do not yet exist.
 

Cameron143

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It's amazing that people keep saying when,by whom ect. that they were slain but then cant figure out when or who they were/are at the same time.
The Roman empire continued past the time of Christ. There would naturally be more rulers yet known.
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Yes they did, and did sob EXACTLY as He said they would. I feel like the AoD was the desolation of of the temple, just like Jesus said, "your house will be left to you desolate",
An abomination which causes desolation is an idol or unclean thing which causes a holy place to be unclean.

Until you get the proper definition of the term. You will not understand

Your house left desolate is NOT an abomination which causes desolation.

In hebrew, the word abomination in Dan 11 and Dan 9 is siqqus - It means a thing which causes horror, An object to abhor, Monster, Filth, Vileness, and idol.

Desolation means to make uninhabitable.

so the term when used together is an abhorent item, filth, or an idol. which causes something to become uninhabitable.

We have an example of this in history when Antiochus Epiphanies slaughtered a pic in the holy place rendering it unclean,, this event caused the maccabeean revolt..

A house which is destroyed and left desolate is NOT an idol which causes it to be rendered unclean.

I am not sure how much more I can say to get you to understand
 

Everlasting-Grace

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lol I said reached it 😋

Its you who are saying otherwise.

Explain why the promised land has been everyone since Adam.
That is heaven,, That is abraham and we all wish to go.

But we are talking about a plot of land given to abraham issac and jacob.

do you understand the difference??

I think I know which is ok but I just want clarity, either way I will listen and treat you with respect 🙂
Do you though?
 

Fundaamental

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That is heaven,, That is abraham and we all wish to go.

But we are talking about a plot of land given to abraham issac and jacob.

do you understand the difference??



Do you though?
The thunder has gone fishing Good day sir 🙂
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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Alright, I have been following your posts and I have to find out what you believe.
Can you answer a few of my questions here, as I cannot DM people.

1. Do you believe in a future earthly millenium followed by the new heaven and new earth and new Jerusalem?
2. Do you believe the millennium will feature animal sacrifices?
3. Do you believe the great tribulation is past or future?
4. Where do you believe we are on God's calendar? What are the signs to look for towards the end?
5. How do you see 2 Thessalonians 2:4? " He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God."
“Do you believe in a future earthly millenium followed by the new heaven and new earth and new Jerusalem?”

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:36‬ ‭KJV‬‬


i believe Jesus is reigning in his kingdom in heaven already with the martyrs and ot saints who rose when he did and the 1000 years isnt literal but should be understood as a long period of time they will reign in heaven before the end of this world then he will reveal the new heaven and earth after the judgement

“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:8‬

In other words Gods measure of time isn’t defined as we define time he’s beyond it we are within it if you look at revelation you’ll see a narrative of what’s happening in heaven and simultaneously what’s happening on earth the reign of the martyrs with Jesus I believe is in heaven

“2. Do you believe the millennium will feature animal sacrifices?

For what purpose ?

“By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. ….but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:10, 12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Do you believe the great tribulation is past or future?”

the great tribulation is about what God told israel on prophecy regarding the curses of the law

“Where do you believe we are on God's calendar? What are the signs to look for towards the end?”

we are waiting for Jesus to return from heaven and gather his people we should be in this frame of mind

We’re waiting for this day

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭

Basically brother I believe the things Jesus and his apostles said we should be looking for and waiting for and not so much what Daniel said israel was waiting for you see here’s sort of a simple way to tell you what I believe

I believe the Old Testament was waiting for the messiah to come

and I believe the New Testament is waiting for the messiah to return

as d I believe each testament has its own prophecy and fulfillment

for example in tbe ot they were waiting for the messiah to come forth

“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭7:14‬ ‭

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭9:6-7‬

The Old Testament is all about the foret appearance of messiah in Israel

In other words

“and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:20-21, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and when Jesus came forth he fulfilled those things but then you have the things he said would happen and his apostles said would happen later leading to not the end of Jerusalem but the world when the messiah returns a second time to fulfill the New Testament as he has the old

the ot and nt have thier own prophecies fulfillments and purposes and they are both all about Jesus coming the first time nd then the promise of his return which Paul and the apostles were always talking about
 

TheDivineWatermark

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remember the quote Jerusalem will be trodden down till the fulness of gentiles comes in ?
You're blurring together two very distinct verses... which verses are covering distinct matters.



The BLUE part of your sentence is from Luke 21:24c [same matter as in Rev11:2 "[Jerusalem] TRODDEN DOWN of the Gentiles [UNTIL the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled]"--referring to Gentile domination over Israel... think: Neb's "dream/statue/image" with Neb as "head of gold" and which STARTED in 605/606bc and will not be CONCLUDED until Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19--the "10 toes" [part] still gotta do their dance! ;) (etc)];


... whereas the GREEN part of your sentence is from Romans 11:25 regarding "blindness / a hardening in part has happened to Israel UNTIL...," which is a completely distinct matter (and point in time when it ["the FULNESS of the Gentiles" will have] "BE COME IN [G1525]").






To be clear, the "FULNESS of the Gentiles [be come in G1525]" and the "TIMES of the Gentiles [be fulfilled]" are two very distinct matters.
 

Pilgrimshope

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?[/QUOTE]
You're blurring together two very distinct verses covering distinct matters.



The BLUE part of your sentence is from Luke 21:24c [same matter as in Rev11:2 "TRODDEN DOWN of the Gentiles [UNTIL the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled]"--referring to Gentile domination over Israel... think: Neb's "dream/statue/image" with Neb as "head of gold" and which STARTED in 605/606bc and will not be CONCLUDED until Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19--the "10 toes" [part] still gotta do their dance! ;) (etc)];

... whereas the GREEN part of your sentence is from Romans 11:25 regarding "blindness / a hardening in part has happened to Israel UNTIL...," which is a completely distinct matter (and point in time when it ["the FULNESS of the Gentiles" will have] "BE COME IN [G1525]").






To be clear, the "FULNESS of the Gentiles [be come in G1525]" and the "TIMES of the Gentiles [be fulfilled]" are two very distinct matters.
thanks for your different opinion that has no scriptural basis
 

TheDivineWatermark

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?

thanks for your different opinion that has no scriptural basis
Pilgrimshope said:
remember the quote “ Jerusalem will be trodden down till the fulness of gentiles comes in ?
There is NO such sentence in the Bible (as you have it here ^ ).


Again, you are blurring TWO verses into ONE (and neither states what you've put here).







--Luke 21:24c and Romans 11:25... two DIFFERENT verses, of which you've placed half of one sentence (from one verse) onto a portion of the other sentence (from a wholly separate verse). Not good. ;)
 

Pilgrimshope

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There is NO such sentence in the Bible (as you have it here ^ ).
yeah again what scriptures do you have to add or dispute ?

it’s pretty basic

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, ( gentiles ) baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

From this time forward gentiles are added into the kingdom and for two thousand years now since Jerusalem was destroyed they still don’t even have the land for the temple mound it’s controlled by Islam lol

for almost 2000 years gentiles have been entering into the kingdom and Jerusalem is still without a temple or control of thier land

strange that Jerusalem is the most contentious place on earth and that the Jews wandered for a couple thousand years without a homeland all the while fentikes are converting to Christianity and entering into the kingdom of Fod by Christ and the gospel

Honestly I don’t really have time for arguing for the sake of contention

“And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

arhat happened in ad 70 the Jews were dispersed o to all nations sent out of Jerusalem by rome after many of them were killed

the time of the fentikes os referring to the time when the gospel was sent to them and they could enter the kingdom and be saved pretty basic stufff man but also some folks here will argue over anything said even if they don’t understand the subject so I get it it’s okay that you disagree with me doesn’t affect me at all

and who knows man you could be right but I see what I see so peace to you
 

Pilgrimshope

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There is NO such sentence in the Bible (as you have it here ^ ).


Again, you are blurring TWO verses into ONE (and neither states what you've put here).







--Luke 21:24c and Romans 11:25... two DIFFERENT verses, of which you've placed half of one sentence (from one verse) onto a portion of the other sentence (from a wholly separate verse). Not good. ;)
There is NO such sentence in the Bible (as you have it here ^ ).

“And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:24‬ ‭
 

TheDivineWatermark

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There is NO such sentence in the Bible (as you have it here ^ ).


Again, you are blurring TWO verses into ONE (and neither states what you've put here).
--Luke 21:24c and Romans 11:25... two DIFFERENT verses, of which you've placed half of one sentence (from one verse) onto a portion of the other sentence (from a wholly separate verse). Not good. ;)
remember the quote "[Judas] went and hung himself, Go, and do thou likewise."



Um, nope... there is NO such sentence in the Bible.

This is portions of TWO very distinct VERSES: Matt27:5 and Lk10:37 and neither of these two verses expresses what the sentence I put at top is saying. (The "made up" sentence... Not "biblical")
 

Cameron143

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Under what covenant does God deal with Israel as a nation in the future?
 

TheDivineWatermark

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“And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:24‬ ‭
CORRECT, and it SHALL.

But that is a completely different matter from that of which Romans 11:25 is expressing (the wording you had placed WITH a portion of this Lk21:24c sentence--resulting in a "made up" sentence... not a "biblical" one).
 

Pilgrimshope

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CORRECT, and it SHALL.

But that is a completely different matter from that of which Romans 11:25 is expressing (the wording you had placed WITH a portion of this Lk21:24c sentence--resulting in a "made up" sentence... not a "biblical" one).


“And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:24‬ ‭

“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you seriously make no connection there ?

israel was blinded by God because of thier rebellion long ago

“And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, ( Isaiah) which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; And seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest at any time they should see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And should understand with their heart, And should be converted, and I should heal them.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul is talking about Israel’s blindness and rejection of Christ happening in order that the gospel could be sent to gentiles, that’s exactly what led to Jerusalems destruction …..

its alright with me if you don’t agree there’s a lot of different opinions here in this forum so no harm no foul is how I see it if you don’t agree bless you anyhow you know ?

It’s alright that you think something different
 

Everlasting-Grace

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“And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:24‬ ‭

“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you seriously make no connection there ?

israel was blinded by God because of thier rebellion long ago

“And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, ( Isaiah) which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; And seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest at any time they should see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And should understand with their heart, And should be converted, and I should heal them.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul is talking about Israel’s blindness and rejection of Christ happening in order that the gospel could be sent to gentiles, that’s exactly what led to Jerusalems destruction …..

its alright with me if you don’t agree there’s a lot of different opinions here in this forum so no harm no foul is how I see it if you don’t agree bless you anyhow you know ?

It’s alright that you think something different
Lev 26 would be your friend..