What Does It Mean That God Desires All People To Be Saved?

[PaulThomson]

@PaulThomson You seem to understand the neuter well. I am just beginning to study the dual-case neuter, but nobody thinks it to be special.

That was not a "dual-case neuter". Grammatically, when koine greek phrases or clauses are a pronoun's referent, the neuter pronoun is used.


The referent here is "we are saved by grace through faith." That we are saved by grace through faith is God's gift freeing is from any need to be saved by our works.

It is not saying that faith and grace are both gifts by which we are saved.

 

[rogerg]

You are insisting on extracting verses 28 and 29 from from their context to avoid admitting that they allow for a different meaning from the one you want to read into them.
Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (touto) not of yourselves: it is the gift of God not of works, lest/that not any man should boast.

Here the neuter "that" (touto) refers back to the clause "you are saved by grace through faith" as being God's gift, followed by the reason, "so that no man should boast."

John 27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 ¶Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 ¶Jesus answered and said unto them, that (touto) is the work of God, so that (hina) ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Here touto refers back to "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, followed by the reason, "so that (hina) ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Perfectly reasonable exegesis.

Nevertheless, you are free to believe as you wish.

Thanks, Paul for your permission to believe as I wish - I'll probably take you up on that.
And are you sure that you're not avoiding that they might allow a different meaning from what you want to read into them?

Anyway, before I spent time digging into this offline, please answer a few questions for me if you would:

I reviewed 15 different translations of John 6:29. Out of those 15, 12 were exactly or effectively the same as the KJV, 3 were different.
Those 12 uses "this" as in "this is the work of God" - I couldn't find any that use "that" - as in "that is the work of God - your translation above. (BTW 199 times in the KJV touto was translated as "this"; only 22 as "that")

Here are the translations I found:

[Jhn 6:29 NKJV] 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
[Jhn 6:29 NLT] 29 Jesus told them, "This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent."
[Jhn 6:29 CSB] 29 Jesus replied, "This is the work of God -- that you believe in the one he has sent."
[Jhn 6:29 NASB20] 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
[Jhn 6:29 NASB95] 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
[Jhn 6:29 LSB] 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
[Jhn 6:29 NET] 29 Jesus replied, "This is the deed God requires - to believe in the one whom he sent."
[Jhn 6:29 RSV] 29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."
[Jhn 6:29 ASV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
[Jhn 6:29 YLT] 29 Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that ye may believe in him whom He did send.'
[Jhn 6:29 DBY] 29 Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he has sent.
[Jhn 6:29 WEB] 29 Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
[Jhn 6:29 HNV] 29 Yeshua answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."
[Jhn 6:29 BBE] 29 Jesus, answering, said to them, This is to do the work of God: to have faith in him whom God has sent.
[Jhn 6:29 AMP] 29 Jesus answered, "This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent."

Just so that I am clear about what you're saying, my question is this: is it your contention that the above versions were translated incorrectly, and the way you've translated it is actually the correct one to use - and that the biblical scholars who did those translations were wrong or left something out? If so, would you mind sharing what your background in Greek is so that I can understand better where you're coming from?

Thanks,
Roger

 

[Kroogz]

That was not a "dual-case neuter". Grammatically, when koine greek phrases or clauses are a pronoun's referent, the neuter pronoun is used.


The referent here is "we are saved by grace through faith." That we are saved by grace through faith is God's gift freeing is from any need to be saved by our works.

It is not saying that faith and grace are both gifts by which we are saved.

And we can determine that by 'grace' and 'faith' being in the feminine correct? Since they are feminine, and "that" is neuter it refers back to the whole scope of the salvation clause? The whole scope of salvation is a gift.

 

[NightTwister]

Neither was Adam. But Adam sinned. So sin cannot be blamed on the free-willed creature's nature.

Only Adam and Jesus had complete free will.

 

[Kroogz]

John 27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 ¶Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 ¶Jesus answered and said unto them, that (touto) is the work of God, so that (hina) ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

touto refers back to "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, followed by the reason, "so that (hina) ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Perfectly reasonable exegesis.

Nevertheless, you are free to believe as you wish.

I have never looked into this verse in this kind of detail. I believe I am going to have to change my view on this one.

One question though....Wouldn't touto(neuter) 'this/that' refer back to " for Him hath God the Father sealed?"

The work of the Father was the sealing of the Son, so that you believe on Him whom HE has sent. Basically, Jesus pointed at Himself and said," this is the work of the Father?"

Interesting. I have always looked at it from the perspective of "what I was told!"

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

And we can determine that by 'grace' and 'faith' being in the feminine correct? Since they are feminine, and "that" is neuter it refers back to the whole scope of the salvation clause? The whole scope of salvation is a gift.

This has me thinking.. whew...

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

John 27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 ¶Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 ¶Jesus answered and said unto them, that (touto) is the work of God, so that (hina) ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


I have never looked into this verse in this kind of detail. I believe I am going to have to change my view on this one.

One question though....Wouldn't touto(neuter) 'this/that' refer back to " for Him hath God the Father sealed?"

The work of the Father was the sealing of the Son, so that you believe on Him whom HE has sent. Basically, Jesus pointed at Himself and said," this is the work of the Father?"

Interesting. I have always looked at it from the perspective of "what I was told!"

I question.

They labored to come to Jesus to get fed.

Jesus' response is do not labor for food which perishes, but for food when endures to eternal life.

ie, if your going to work this hard to come see me, Work this hard to listen to my words. which will endure forever to live eternal.. not for physical food which will perish..

 

[Cameron143]

Man this will make all the calvinsts upset! View attachment 259298

They think God does NOT want all people to be saved and He actually created some people for no other reason that to send them to hell!

This is the L in their tulip flowery thingy bob they call Limited Atonement:


These scripture references show that limited atonement is not biblical at all.

Romans 8:29,30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 5:1
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children

Romans 1:19-21
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Cameron143]

Only Adam and Jesus had complete free will.

Feminists are not going to like that you left out Eve.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Feminists are not going to like that you left out Eve.

why just feminists?

 

[Mem]

why just feminists?

because they are unaware that Adam ruling over her is her blessing...

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

because they are unaware that Adam ruling over her is her blessing...

Not sure that helps

If he is using the excuse adam and Christ are the only two who had free will. He leaves Eve out.

so we should all understand he is in error..

 

[Mem]

Not sure that helps

If he is using the excuse adam and Christ are the only two who had free will. He leaves Eve out.

so we should all understand he is in error..

true, without free will, no one can be accountable.

 

[Mem]

It's not that Eve did not have free will, but she erred being deceived, and she reasoned herself into eating, i.e. 'see that it looked good for food. On the other hand, Adam was not deceived, and it was his will to eat, in order to know good and evil.

 

[PaulThomson]

What translation? I notice the gift is salvation or rescue, but touto is neuter and connects to the salvation participle and but not the clause.

salvatuon is sOtEria, a feminine word. So it cannot be what touto, which is neuter, references.

 

[PaulThomson]

1 Timothy 2:4 ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν
Who which desires all the mortals to have been saving, and into the notices of the truth so as to come.

Only one surprise with the examination of the Greek. The infinitive is a past tense and aorist.

The aorist infinitive indicates the beginning of something not yet happening. The present infinitive indicates the continuance of something already happening.

So, ."..who is willing all men to start being saved and to start coming to the truth."

 

[Cameron143]

why just feminists?

Good point. My bad. Let it never be said that I do not support anyone's propensity to find fault with any and everything.

 

[notmyown]

Good point. My bad. Let it never be said that I do not support anyone's propensity to find fault with any and everything.

my youngest says my love language is sarcasm, so you may imagine how much i feel the love!

 

[PaulThomson]

Thanks, Paul for your permission to believe as I wish - I'll probably take you up on that.
And are you sure that you're not avoiding that they might allow a different meaning from what you want to read into them?

Anyway, before I spent time digging into this offline, please answer a few questions for me if you would:

I reviewed 15 different translations of John 6:29. Out of those 15, 12 were exactly or effectively the same as the KJV, 3 were different.
Those 12 uses "this" as in "this is the work of God" - I couldn't find any that use "that" - as in "that is the work of God - your translation above. (BTW 199 times in the KJV touto was translated as "this"; only 22 as "that")

Here are the translations I found:

[Jhn 6:29 NKJV] 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
[Jhn 6:29 NLT] 29 Jesus told them, "This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent."
[Jhn 6:29 CSB] 29 Jesus replied, "This is the work of God -- that you believe in the one he has sent."
[Jhn 6:29 NASB20] 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
[Jhn 6:29 NASB95] 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
[Jhn 6:29 LSB] 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
[Jhn 6:29 NET] 29 Jesus replied, "This is the deed God requires - to believe in the one whom he sent."
[Jhn 6:29 RSV] 29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."
[Jhn 6:29 ASV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
[Jhn 6:29 YLT] 29 Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that ye may believe in him whom He did send.'
[Jhn 6:29 DBY] 29 Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he has sent.
[Jhn 6:29 WEB] 29 Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
[Jhn 6:29 HNV] 29 Yeshua answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."
[Jhn 6:29 BBE] 29 Jesus, answering, said to them, This is to do the work of God: to have faith in him whom God has sent.
[Jhn 6:29 AMP] 29 Jesus answered, "This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent."

Just so that I am clear about what you're saying, my question is this: is it your contention that the above versions were translated incorrectly, and the way you've translated it is actually the correct one to use - and that the biblical scholars who did those translations were wrong or left something out? If so, would you mind sharing what your background in Greek is so that I can understand better where you're coming from?

Thanks,
Roger

I posted in my previous post a text (Eph.2:8) with a similar structure to John 6:29, only the consequential clause subjunctive is negative and so is introduced by mE, i.e. "lest/that not". This or that are both correct, but i think "that" makes the referent clearer than "this". when translating into English here, because like in Eph 2:8, it is referring back not forwards, and we more naturally use "that" to refer backwards and "this" to refer forwards in English.

Compare, "Dogs are too much work to look after as pets; that's what I think anyway,. And,
"Dogs are too much work to look after as pets; this is what I think anyway."
Which sounds more natural?

Also, that you believe is an aorist active subjunctive, pisteusEte, so it should be translated as a modal, not in the indicative, i.e.
"That is the work of God, so that you might start believing into the one whom that one sent."
touto estin to ergov tou theou hina pisteusEte eis hos apesteilen ekeinos.

I did beginner Greek at nights in a Bible college about 40 years ago and have self studied since then.

 

[Cameron143]

my youngest says my love language is sarcasm, so you may imagine how much i feel the love!

I just learned my love language is Chinese. I've never been good at art but I'm trying to learn calligraphy so I can at least I can feign loving others better.