Sunday Worship?

[SabbathBlessing]

James 2:4 refers to Leviticus 19:15 and is the central objection the entire chapter chides the letters recipients over. it is reiterated in verse 9.

James 2:8 gives the command he says they should be keeping, and refers to the authority of Christ ((Who called it alone "My commandment" in John 15:12)) by calling it "royal" - which is written in Leviticus 19:34.

James 2:11 is merely parenthetical, not the scope of his argument. he gives two of the decalogue as example that God Who gave one commandment in the Law gave the whole Law.

James 2:12 wraps up his rebuke saying not that they are judged by the decalogue but by "the law of liberty" which is an implicit reference to the new covenant as explained in Romans 7 — they are not under the law, but grace, and should therefore walk righteously.

the specific thing he rebukes them over is partiality in judgement. this is not the 10 Commandments. it is in that context he says stumbling in any part of the law makes one guilty of the whole law.

so i think you are intellectually dishonest to claim this is only about the decalogue and even more dishonest to claim the rest of the Law doesn't matter.

I already provided the context- James explains the "whole law" he is referring to as he only contrasted and quoted directly from the Ten. Adding more to that is adding to God's Word, we need to trust the scriptures, it interprets itself.

The Royal Law is the greatest commandments....as shown in context...


James 2:8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right.

The Royal Law sums up the Law of Liberty - i.e. Ten but the summary does not delete the details. 1 John 5:2-3 Romans 13:8

 

[Niki7]

What did Jesus say about keeping the law can you quote? Does Jesus words and teaching mean anything anymore? Jesus is the ultimate authority on all things forever.

Blessings

What did Jesus death on the cross accomplish if we still have to keep the law?

As it is, the law was not given to Gentiles, of which I am one although a little crossbred.

And since Jesus fulfilled all of the law, that law has not been perfected before God and our sins are forgiven

Have you read or studied the rest of the New Testament or are you stuck in the gospels?

 

[SabbathBlessing]

I'm not. The question was in response to you frequently making arguments specifically touting Jesus' words. Because if you aren't, why do you use continually draw notice when you are referring to His actual words? I notice you never do that with Moses.

Because there is no greater authority than Jesus, do you think there is?

I quote many authors of scripture. None of the law and prophets in scripture contradict Jesus- He is easy to understand and if the disciples didn't understand they asked for Him to explain and so He did. Sadly, people use out of context scriptures over the plain teachings of Jesus. If we have faith in Him we should have faith in how He lived and what He taught as He is our example to follow 1 John 2:6 Hebrews 4:15 2 Peter 1:21-22

 

[Niki7]

I wrote that for your instruction. Because you teach the Law as "valid for the believer today" you're unable to teach anything.

Lead a horse to water something something.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

What did Jesus death on the cross accomplish if we still have to keep the law?

As it is, the law was not given to Gentiles, of which I am one although a little crossbred.

And since Jesus fulfilled all of the law, that law has not been perfected before God and our sins are forgiven

Have you read or studied the rest of the New Testament or are you stuck in the gospels?

Why would Jesus have to die if He removed the law that defines sin? Jesus came to save us from sin, not in sin Mat 1:21 No law, no sin, no need for grace, no need for Jesus and all would be lost. Removing the law is not the plan of salvation. The pentaty of sin is death, Jesus took away the pentalty and gave us another option. Confessing to Him when we sin- which means a change in heart and direction.

We have to be in a covenant relationship with God so I would not want to write myself out of God's covenant promise that He made with Israel. Hebrews 8:10 Jer 31:33 where He write His laws in our hearts and minds, instead of deleting them and all our grafted in through faith Gal 3:26-28

In the New Covenant Jesus is our High Priest now Hebrews 4:15 Heb 7:28 so we go directly to Him for forgiveness of sin 1 John 1:9 instead of an animal sacrifice to a human priest for sin. The law that was changed was the priesthood and old sanctuary system for the forgivness of sins such as animal sacrifice's which was always a placeholder until the Seed would come as it always pointed to Jesus Christ Hebrews 10:1-22 as the blood of animals was never perfect for the cleanings of sins, but the blood of Christ is perfect to cleanse us of sin and all unrighteousness when we repent confess and turn to Him for forgiveness and sanctification. What did not change is what sin is, the transgression of God’s law, the Ten Commandments Romans 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 kept by God's faithful until the very end Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14. Hope this helps.

 

[Niki7]

What did Jesus death on the cross accomplish if we still have to keep the law?

As it is, the law was not given to Gentiles, of which I am one although a little crossbred.

And since Jesus fulfilled all of the law, that law has not been perfected before God and our sins are forgiven

Have you read or studied the rest of the New Testament or are you stuck in the gospels?

So, a little more on my post above. This topic has been massaged so many times in this forum that I forget some people have not yet heard all the responses regarding the above

Very often, people who do not follow law keeping, will accuse us of thinking we can sin like pagan sailors on shore leave.

That is not true. We do not do that

Thank you very much

 

[Cameron143]

Because there is no greater authority than Jesus, do you think there is?

I quote many authors of scripture. None of the law and prophets in scripture contradict Jesus- He is easy to understand and if the disciples didn't understand they asked for Him to explain and so He did. Sadly, people use out of context scriptures over the plain teachings of Jesus. If we have faith in Him we should have faith in how He lived and what He taught as He is our example to follow 1 John 2:6 Hebrews 4:15 2 Peter 1:21-22

No. I believe all true authority comes from God. But the word of God is equally authoritative, regardless of the author. So, if you aren't disagreeing with this, you are likely doing it because you believe it adds weight to your argument, whether consciously or not.
Also, simply using His words doesn't imply superior understanding, which I personally believe is the reason you invoke His name.
I am curious though, why the keeping of the law is your overarching concern. JESUS said in Matthew 6:33 is to be seeking His kingdom and His righteousness. Why isn't this your focus?

 

[Niki7]

Why would Jesus have to die if He removed the law that defines sin? Jesus came to save us from sin, not in sin Mat 1:21 No law, no sin, no need for grace, no need for Jesus and all would be lost. Removing the law is not the plan of salvation.

We have to be in a covenant relationship with God so I would not want to write myself out of God's covenant promise that He made with Israel. Hebrews 8:10 Jer 31:33 where He write His laws in our hearts and minds, instead of deleting them and all our grafted in through faith Gal 3:26-28

In the New Covenant Jesus is our High Priest now Hebrews 4:15 Heb 7:28 so we go directly to Him for forgiveness of sin 1 John 1:9 instead of an animal sacrifice to a human priest for sin. The law that was changed wass the priesthood and old sactiary system for the forgivness of sins such as animal sacrifice's which was always a placeholder until the Seed would come as it always pointed to Jesus Christ Hebrews 10:1-22 as the blood of animals was never perfect for the cleanings of sins, but the blood of Christ is perfect to cleanse us of sin and all unrighteousness when we repent confess and turn to Him for forgiveness and sanctification. What did not change is what sin is, the transgression of God’s law, the Ten Commandments Romans 7:7 Mat 5:19-30. Hope this helps.

Are you Jewish?

That is the only way you could possibly be in a T covenant with God. Or at least think that you are.

Nonetheless, us Gentiles are very thankful that God has temporarily cut you off in order that we may also come into the promise of salvation through Jesus

The New Covenant, the one that is actually in effect, is through the blood of Christ.

6Therefore, just as you have received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to walk in Him, 7rooted and built up in Him, established in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ. 9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form. 10And you have been made complete in Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

11In Him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christb and not by human hands. 12And having been buried with Him in baptism, you were raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.

13When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, 14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

16Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.c 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you with speculation about what he has seen. Such a person is puffed up without basis by his unspiritual mind. 19He has lost connection to the head, from whom the whole body, supported and knit together by its joints and ligaments, grows as God causes it to grow.

20If you have died with Christ to the spiritual forces of the world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its regulations: 21“Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!”? 22These will all perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such restrictions indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-prescribed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body; but they are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

So, a little more on my post above. This topic has been massaged so many times in this forum that I forget some people have not yet heard all the responses regarding the above

Very often, people who do not follow law keeping, will accuse us of thinking we can sin like pagan sailors on shore leave.

That is not true. We do not do that

Thank you very much

Thats good, then I don't know why anyone would argue over the law that reveals sin, the Ten Commandments Romans 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 its not up to us to define sin, God does! We are to be His faithful servants.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

No. I believe all true authority comes from God. But the word of God is equally authoritative, regardless of the author. So, if you aren't disagreeing with this, you are likely doing it because you believe it adds weight to your argument, whether consciously or not.
Also, simply using His words doesn't imply superior understanding, which I personally believe you invoke His name.
I am curious though, why the keeping of the law is your overarching concern. JESUS said in Matthew 6:33 is to be seeking His kingdom and His righteousness. Why isn't this your focus?

Do you think God the Father and God the Son are at odds with their teachings? Jesus came to do the will of His Father John 6:38 so everything Jesus is speaking and teaching is God's will. Not sure I understand the point you're trying to make.

 

[Niki7]

Thats good, then I don't know why anyone would argue over the law that reveals sin, the Ten Commandments Romans 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 its not up to us to define sin, God does! We are to be His faithful servants.

You know you talk (post) like you think you are the only one who has any knowledge.

See, you cannot respond to the scripture I just posted because it states plainly that the law has passed away and we are now no longer bound by it...as it is, Gentiles were never bound by it.

I also do not want to play ping pong with you, that is you post quickly after whatever I post. Why don't you take a real close look at that scripture from Colossians and tell us what you disagree with.

Frankly, when a person skips over scripture that identifies their error, it is very disingenuous and they are most likely embedded so deep in that error, that they need a donkey to tell them to stop pursuing it.

I can be stubborn, but I ain't no donkey.

 

[Niki7]

6Therefore, just as you have received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to walk in Him, 7rooted and built up in Him, established in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ. 9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form. 10And you have been made complete in Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

11In Him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christb and not by human hands. 12And having been buried with Him in baptism, you were raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.

13When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, 14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

16Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you with speculation about what he has seen. Such a person is puffed up without basis by his unspiritual mind. 19He has lost connection to the head, from whom the whole body, supported and knit together by its joints and ligaments, grows as God causes it to grow.

20If you have died with Christ to the spiritual forces of the world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its regulations: 21“Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!”? 22These will all perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such restrictions indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-prescribed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body; but they are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Are you Jewish?

That is the only way you could possibly be in a T covenant with God. Or at least think that you are.

Nonetheless, us Gentiles are very thankful that God has temporarily cut you off in order that we may also come into the promise of salvation through Jesus

The New Covenant, the one that is actually in effect, is through the blood of Christ.

6Therefore, just as you have received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to walk in Him, 7rooted and built up in Him, established in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ. 9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form. 10And you have been made complete in Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

11In Him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christb and not by human hands. 12And having been buried with Him in baptism, you were raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.

13When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, 14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

16Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.c 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you with speculation about what he has seen. Such a person is puffed up without basis by his unspiritual mind. 19He has lost connection to the head, from whom the whole body, supported and knit together by its joints and ligaments, grows as God causes it to grow.

20If you have died with Christ to the spiritual forces of the world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its regulations: 21“Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!”? 22These will all perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such restrictions indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-prescribed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body; but they are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

This is the New Covenant- God speaking here....

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Quoted verbatim for the OT

Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.


Gal 1:6-9 -- there is only one Gospel
Gal 3:8 "THE Gospel was preached to Abraham"
Heb 4:2 "THE Gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also"

 

[SabbathBlessing]

6Therefore, just as you have received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to walk in Him, 7rooted and built up in Him, established in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ. 9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form. 10And you have been made complete in Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

11In Him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christb and not by human hands. 12And having been buried with Him in baptism, you were raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.

13When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, 14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

16Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you with speculation about what he has seen. Such a person is puffed up without basis by his unspiritual mind. 19He has lost connection to the head, from whom the whole body, supported and knit together by its joints and ligaments, grows as God causes it to grow.

20If you have died with Christ to the spiritual forces of the world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its regulations: 21“Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!”? 22These will all perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such restrictions indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-prescribed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body; but they are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Lets put the context back in this verse as this is one of the most misapplied scriptures people use, but sadly most never take the time to study it carefully.

Colossians 2:14 provides the context for Colossians 2:16

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

So we know this from Colossians 2:14:
1. They are handwritten
2. They are ordinances
3. They are contrary.

Does this fit the Sabbath commandment in any way?
1. The Sabbath was finger-written by God (not by hand) Exo 31:18 Exo 32:16
2. The Sabbath is a commandment of God (not an ordinance). Exodus 20, Exodus 34:28 Deut 4:13 Exo 20:8-11 Exo 20:6
3. God said the Sabbath is holy and blessed (not cursed and contrary) Exodus 20:8-11 Genesis 2:1-3
Note: once God blesses something man cannot reverse it Num 23:20, so one would need a thus saith the Lord to do away with God's holy Sabbath day, which does not exist. There is another safeguard in scripture how many twist the words of Paul 2 Peter 3:16 and Paul does not have authority to take away one of God's commandments.

There are more than one Sabbath in scripture but only one weekly Sabbath that is a commandment of God blessed and made holy by God, written by His very own finger..


So what is this verse referring to:


Deuteronomy 31:24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying: 26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;

The book that contained the ordinances were outside the ark- all of the Ten Commandments, which includes the Sabbath commandment are inside the ark.

Colossians 2:17 gives us more insight...

Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Lets go to Hebrews 10 as it explains it....


Hebrews10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”
8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, [b]O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been [c]sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all

1 Cor 5:7 For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

Sin is the transgression of God's law 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 Jesus didn't die so we can continue in sin, but to continue living in His grace through faith, keeping His commandments by love 1 John 5:3 Romans 3:31

 

[Niki7]

This is the New Covenant- God speaking here....

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Quoted verbatim for the OT

Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.


Gal 1:6-9 -- there is only one Gospel
Gal 3:8 "THE Gospel was preached to Abraham"
Heb 4:2 "THE Gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also"

oh my lands!

are you of the house of Israel? PHYSICAL ISRAEL?

If not stand down. You are in way over your pay grade.

you post scripture that actually tells you the opposite of what you go on about and do not see it

yeah, you just might could be Jewish

 

[posthuman]

I already provided the context- James explains the "whole law" he is referring to as he only contrasted and quoted directly from the Ten. Adding more to that is adding to God's Word, we need to trust the scriptures, it interprets itself.

you need to re-read James 2 then, because you are quite wrong.

the two commandments James is telling the people he wrote to that they have broken are from Leviticus 19, not Exodus 20.

it's absolutely ridiculous to say James 2:10 only refers to the decalogue.

James 2:9-10​

if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors, for whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.​

 

[Niki7]

Lets put the context back in this verse as this is one of the most misapplied scriptures people use, but sadly most never take the time to study it carefully.

Baloney

and lots of it

what a persnickety little dude you are

 

[SabbathBlessing]

you need to re-read James 2 then, because you are quite wrong.

the two commandments James is telling the people he wrote to that they have broken are from Leviticus 19, not Exodus 20.

it's absolutely ridiculous to say James 2:10 only refers to the decalogue.

James 2:9-10​

if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors, for whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.​

As previously shown, the context says something different. I prefer to trust the scriptures as they read, but we have free will. Thanks for the chat and I wish you well in seeking Truth from His Word.

 

[Cameron143]

Do you think God the Father and God the Son are at odds with their teachings? Jesus came to do the will of His Father John 6:38 so everything Jesus is speaking and teaching is God's will. Not sure I understand the point you're trying to make.

Every part of scripture is God breathed. It is equally authoritative. So singling out Jesus as the speaker is irrelevant.
Since you make a point to single out His words, you are implying either your argument is more authoritative because you are referring to Jesus' words or your understanding is superior because you are the one invoking them.
But I'm really interested in the question I asked: why do you focus so singularly on the law when Matthew 6:33 makes it clear that we are to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness?

 

[SabbathBlessing]

oh my lands!

are you of the house of Israel? PHYSICAL ISRAEL?

If not stand down. You are in way over your pay grade.

you post scripture that actually tells you the opposite of what you go on about and do not see it

yeah, you just might could be Jewish

Understanding what Israel means in scripture would be an important study as it is just a name God gave His people, it is both literal and metaphorically. There is no more Jew or Gentile in God's covenant we are grafted in through faith Gal 3:26-28 which is why Israel is not Israel if they are not grafted in through faith Romans 9:6