Is Baptism in water a work or a command? Is it necessary for salvation?
- Thread starter tylerbones1313
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Short answer...
Mar 1:14 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
The good news of God's coming Kingdom on Earth.
Daniel preached it also...
Dan 2:37 You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory;
Dan 2:38 and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all—you are this head of gold.
Dan 2:39 But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.
Dan 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others.
Dan 2:41 Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay.
Dan 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile.
Dan 2:43 As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay.
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
Dan 2:45 Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold—the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure."
Mar 1:14 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
The good news of God's coming Kingdom on Earth.
Daniel preached it also...
Dan 2:37 You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory;
Dan 2:38 and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all—you are this head of gold.
Dan 2:39 But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.
Dan 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others.
Dan 2:41 Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay.
Dan 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile.
Dan 2:43 As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay.
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
Dan 2:45 Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold—the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure."
Works cannot save us but we are not saved without works and you say we are saved by the work of water baptism? You can't have it both ways. Man is saved by grace through faith "apart from the merit of works" (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Yet authentic saving faith in Christ does not remain alone "apart from the presence of works." (James 2:14-24)
You are making it so baptism is the means by which we obtain salvation. That's not saved through faith but saved by baptism.
The heart of the issue is what baptism signifies...not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Without faith there is no good conscience. 1 Timothy 1:5 - But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 1 Timothy 1:19 - having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck. A defiled conscience is connected to unbelieving. Titus 1:15 - To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.
Water baptism is the picture of the reality. As Greek scholar AT Robertson said: The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin, forwards to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave (F. B. Meyer). There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.
Romans 6 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
Galatians 3:26 - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus (Period.) *Not through faith and water baptism. Also read John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. *Received Him, given the right to become children of God, through believing in His name, not through water baptism.
We are Spirit baptized into the body of Christ. 1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. This is Spirit baptism, not water baptism. Now in what "sense" would we be water baptized into Christ? In the same sense that the Israelites were baptized into Moses. (1 Corinthians 10:2) The Israelites were not literally water baptized into the body of Moses here and being "baptized into Moses" signified the open allegiance and public identification of the Israelites with Moses. Moses was formally recognized as the leader of the covenant people, the Israelites. Water baptism signifies our allegiance and public identification with Christ as our Savior, so it's in that sense.
Galatians 3:27 - For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on/clothed yourself with Christ. The Greek word for "put on" is "enduo" and means to enclose oneself in, as when one "puts on" clothes or armor or some other item. So how does one "put on" Christ in baptism? Is it because one becomes a "child of God" through water baptism? NO. "Let us therefore cast off the works of darkness and let us put on the armor of light...put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:12,14) This exhortation is written to Christians (those already saved). Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to "put on" Christ. To "put on" Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we "put on" Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So, if "put on" Christ means saved through water baptism, apparently, we are not saved yet. We must also "put on" Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts in order to be saved as well. (Romans 13:14) Right? NO. Let's be consistent. This exhortation is to those ALREADY SAVED.
Those who received his word (through repentance, faith implied or assumed, two sides to the same coin) were "afterwards" baptized. It does not say here that baptism was the direct cause of them being added.
In Acts 4:4, we read - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. *What happened to baptism?
Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. *What happened to baptism?
CONTINUED..
You are making it so baptism is the means by which we obtain salvation. That's not saved through faith but saved by baptism.
The heart of the issue is what baptism signifies...not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Without faith there is no good conscience. 1 Timothy 1:5 - But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 1 Timothy 1:19 - having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck. A defiled conscience is connected to unbelieving. Titus 1:15 - To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.
Water baptism is the picture of the reality. As Greek scholar AT Robertson said: The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin, forwards to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave (F. B. Meyer). There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.
Romans 6 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
Galatians 3:26 - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus (Period.) *Not through faith and water baptism. Also read John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. *Received Him, given the right to become children of God, through believing in His name, not through water baptism.
We are Spirit baptized into the body of Christ. 1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. This is Spirit baptism, not water baptism. Now in what "sense" would we be water baptized into Christ? In the same sense that the Israelites were baptized into Moses. (1 Corinthians 10:2) The Israelites were not literally water baptized into the body of Moses here and being "baptized into Moses" signified the open allegiance and public identification of the Israelites with Moses. Moses was formally recognized as the leader of the covenant people, the Israelites. Water baptism signifies our allegiance and public identification with Christ as our Savior, so it's in that sense.
Galatians 3:27 - For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on/clothed yourself with Christ. The Greek word for "put on" is "enduo" and means to enclose oneself in, as when one "puts on" clothes or armor or some other item. So how does one "put on" Christ in baptism? Is it because one becomes a "child of God" through water baptism? NO. "Let us therefore cast off the works of darkness and let us put on the armor of light...put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:12,14) This exhortation is written to Christians (those already saved). Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to "put on" Christ. To "put on" Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we "put on" Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So, if "put on" Christ means saved through water baptism, apparently, we are not saved yet. We must also "put on" Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts in order to be saved as well. (Romans 13:14) Right? NO. Let's be consistent. This exhortation is to those ALREADY SAVED.
Those who received his word (through repentance, faith implied or assumed, two sides to the same coin) were "afterwards" baptized. It does not say here that baptism was the direct cause of them being added.
In Acts 4:4, we read - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. *What happened to baptism?
Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. *What happened to baptism?
CONTINUED..
-
1
- Show all
The language in Acts 22:16 is similar to the statement of Christ when He took the bread and said, "This is my body" (Matthew 26:26). The bread was only the emblem of His body. Baptism is the emblem of the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ. Every time a believer is immersed, he washes away his sins in the same sense Paul did: not literally, but ceremonially, pointing to the blood of Christ by which sins are actually washed away. (Ephesians 1:17; 1 John 1:7; Revelation 1:5)
Literally through Spirit baptism. Ceremonially, through water baptism.
Notice the circumcision is made without hands. In Romans 2:29, we read - but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. Spirit baptism is the reality and water baptism is the picture of the reality.
Don't stop there. Keep reading - ..but he who does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16(b). The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."
If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then we would expect Jesus to mention it in the following verses. (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). Yet what is the 1 requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Don't stop there. Keep reading - ..not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes not of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160]. Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT).
Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17). It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was BEFORE he was water baptized. (Acts 9:18) Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his baptism.
It's interesting that when Paul recounted this event again later in Acts (Acts 26:12-18), he did not mention Ananias or what Ananias said to him at all. Verse 18 again would confirm the idea that Paul received Christ as Savior on the road to Damascus since here Christ is telling Paul he will be a messenger for Him concerning forgiveness of sins for Gentiles as they have faith in Him. It would seem unlikely that Christ would commission Paul if Paul had not yet believed in Him and was still lost in his sins.
No scripture is to be interpreted in isolation from the totality of scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.
Satan knows that Jesus Christ is the only way (John 10:9; 14:6) and that through believing in Him (John 3:15,16,18) placing faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Romans 5:1-2; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9) is the only way to be saved he confuses people by attaching works to the gospel, rendering Christ's finished work of redemption IN-sufficient to completely save us. Yet Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed.
The serpent obviously deceived the woman.
Literally through Spirit baptism. Ceremonially, through water baptism.
Notice the circumcision is made without hands. In Romans 2:29, we read - but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. Spirit baptism is the reality and water baptism is the picture of the reality.
Don't stop there. Keep reading - ..but he who does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16(b). The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."
If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then we would expect Jesus to mention it in the following verses. (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). Yet what is the 1 requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Don't stop there. Keep reading - ..not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes not of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160]. Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT).
Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17). It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was BEFORE he was water baptized. (Acts 9:18) Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his baptism.
It's interesting that when Paul recounted this event again later in Acts (Acts 26:12-18), he did not mention Ananias or what Ananias said to him at all. Verse 18 again would confirm the idea that Paul received Christ as Savior on the road to Damascus since here Christ is telling Paul he will be a messenger for Him concerning forgiveness of sins for Gentiles as they have faith in Him. It would seem unlikely that Christ would commission Paul if Paul had not yet believed in Him and was still lost in his sins.
No scripture is to be interpreted in isolation from the totality of scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.
Satan knows that Jesus Christ is the only way (John 10:9; 14:6) and that through believing in Him (John 3:15,16,18) placing faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Romans 5:1-2; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9) is the only way to be saved he confuses people by attaching works to the gospel, rendering Christ's finished work of redemption IN-sufficient to completely save us. Yet Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed.
The serpent obviously deceived the woman.
-
1
- Show all
Thank you for the well thought out reply. You've given me a lot to digest and respond to. I will gladly do so but it will take some time. Since I don't have the time right now, I would like to challenge this one point for now.
Jesus does mention it. The reason baptism isn't mentioned in those verses is because baptism has already been established previously in the conversation.
It's easy to point and say, where is baptism, when someone begins in the middle of a conversation. Your first verse here is John 3:15. If we back up in the same conversation, we see baptism is necessary.
5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
We see that exact thing on the day of Pentecost. Be baptized and receive the gift of the HS. Water and Spirit.
Also, there is no need to mention it every time because (1) it's already been established and (2) belief must come first. If someone doesn't believe, whether they do or do not get baptized makes zero difference.
16 The one who has believed (first) and has been baptized (notice has been, past tense) will be saved (comes after both, not before baptism)
Same verse we see what if someone doesn't believe but the one who has not believed will be condemned. If someone doesn't believe, it doesn't matter if they get baptized or not, they are condemned.
Jesus does mention it. The reason baptism isn't mentioned in those verses is because baptism has already been established previously in the conversation.
It's easy to point and say, where is baptism, when someone begins in the middle of a conversation. Your first verse here is John 3:15. If we back up in the same conversation, we see baptism is necessary.
5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
We see that exact thing on the day of Pentecost. Be baptized and receive the gift of the HS. Water and Spirit.
Also, there is no need to mention it every time because (1) it's already been established and (2) belief must come first. If someone doesn't believe, whether they do or do not get baptized makes zero difference.
16 The one who has believed (first) and has been baptized (notice has been, past tense) will be saved (comes after both, not before baptism)
Same verse we see what if someone doesn't believe but the one who has not believed will be condemned. If someone doesn't believe, it doesn't matter if they get baptized or not, they are condemned.
-
1
- Show all
I agree with this sentiment fully, I want to as well. This is why after a false conversion and pointless baptism (more of just ignorance and being blindly led) then being saved in power and truth for real by our one and only Creator through Jesus work and sacrifice on the cross, I obeyed Him and was baptized in water in front of my friends and family as an outward sign that the flesh was put to death and the old man buried and I was reborn anew in the Spirit.
My only point was to those saying that you have to be baptized to be saved, that is not true and can't be true in my experience of being born again. God reconciled me to Himself through Jesus before I was baptized. Like for sure without a doubt and I say this in Jesus name as my Lord and Savior, I testify this to you in truth that I was saved then baptized.
To be honest and after thinking about it, I imagine someone being born again in truth right as they were baptized is actually a pretty rare thing to happen. I would think there are those baptized before they are saved and those after.
I also agree with your last sentiment as well, as we grow in Him and He opens our eyes to things that are right and wrong that we never even thought of in truth, we will move away from these things by the power of His Spirit now indwelling us leading us to ALL truth.
I just know first hand that saying water baptism is physically required to be saved is not true. I know WAY too many who were saved beforehand. I hope I'm not coming off too combative, but this is something God has shown me first hand and the truth must reign. You've been very polite though, thank you, I appreciate it.
My only point was to those saying that you have to be baptized to be saved, that is not true and can't be true in my experience of being born again. God reconciled me to Himself through Jesus before I was baptized. Like for sure without a doubt and I say this in Jesus name as my Lord and Savior, I testify this to you in truth that I was saved then baptized.
To be honest and after thinking about it, I imagine someone being born again in truth right as they were baptized is actually a pretty rare thing to happen. I would think there are those baptized before they are saved and those after.
I also agree with your last sentiment as well, as we grow in Him and He opens our eyes to things that are right and wrong that we never even thought of in truth, we will move away from these things by the power of His Spirit now indwelling us leading us to ALL truth.
I just know first hand that saying water baptism is physically required to be saved is not true. I know WAY too many who were saved beforehand. I hope I'm not coming off too combative, but this is something God has shown me first hand and the truth must reign. You've been very polite though, thank you, I appreciate it.
I hate the works not works debate. It is so unfruitful and modern. Everyone universally understood works stands for works of the law, things like circumcision, animal sacrifices etc.
No one EVER thought that getting baptized would be "works salvation". Even the people who invented the phrase: "By faith alone in Christ alone by grace alone" or however it went, even those guys who came up with that phrase which would be the REFORMERS, all believed water baptism was not optional. Lutherans preach faith alone, so much so that Luther even ADDED IT into His bible, he added the word "alone" to Romans 3 to make it fit his idea.......... yet guess what? Luther believed you gotta be baptized. All the reformers did. This no baptism shtick only came about a hundred years ago and it seems to be getting more popular as everyone is parroting the "its an outward symbol of inward grace" thing which is NOWHERE in the bible.
As to baptism itself, how about this: Lets just get baptized? Lets just do it the Bible way, you profess faith, you are baptized, immersed, IMMEDIATELY, no queues, no hoola hoop with the church and hanging around, lets just do it immediately. And guess what? This whole debate dies, its no longer necessary, as everyone is baptized, so whether its required or not, does not matter.
But since Christians have shot themselves in the foot here, my opinion is: To reject baptism is to reject faith. If you claim to have faith but REFUSE to get water baptized, you simply prove you have no faith whatsoever, as you cant even bring yourself to submit to the great commission, the Gospel.
Most extreme example ive ever seen of someone rejecting baptism is a politician in my country, who is a Christian and claims to hear from God regularly, but was asked by some of his viewers to get baptized and he said: "I should go into some muddy lake with a sheet on me and get baptized by some sinner? Have him in between me and Christ? No thanks"
What he said was his own philosophy, not Christianity, he refuses baptism, talks down on it, therefore he has rejected the faith as well.
No one EVER thought that getting baptized would be "works salvation". Even the people who invented the phrase: "By faith alone in Christ alone by grace alone" or however it went, even those guys who came up with that phrase which would be the REFORMERS, all believed water baptism was not optional. Lutherans preach faith alone, so much so that Luther even ADDED IT into His bible, he added the word "alone" to Romans 3 to make it fit his idea.......... yet guess what? Luther believed you gotta be baptized. All the reformers did. This no baptism shtick only came about a hundred years ago and it seems to be getting more popular as everyone is parroting the "its an outward symbol of inward grace" thing which is NOWHERE in the bible.
As to baptism itself, how about this: Lets just get baptized? Lets just do it the Bible way, you profess faith, you are baptized, immersed, IMMEDIATELY, no queues, no hoola hoop with the church and hanging around, lets just do it immediately. And guess what? This whole debate dies, its no longer necessary, as everyone is baptized, so whether its required or not, does not matter.
But since Christians have shot themselves in the foot here, my opinion is: To reject baptism is to reject faith. If you claim to have faith but REFUSE to get water baptized, you simply prove you have no faith whatsoever, as you cant even bring yourself to submit to the great commission, the Gospel.
Most extreme example ive ever seen of someone rejecting baptism is a politician in my country, who is a Christian and claims to hear from God regularly, but was asked by some of his viewers to get baptized and he said: "I should go into some muddy lake with a sheet on me and get baptized by some sinner? Have him in between me and Christ? No thanks"
What he said was his own philosophy, not Christianity, he refuses baptism, talks down on it, therefore he has rejected the faith as well.
Sorry but that is not true...
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
if you think you are not flesh and blood, take the hatpin test. You a;re right about being born again, but that happens at the resurrection.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
if you think you are not flesh and blood, take the hatpin test. You a;re right about being born again, but that happens at the resurrection.
God Also? Since it is causing "envy, strife, and division" (Romans 1:29, 13:13):
Does God Also hate judgmentalism? How about Severe Division over water?
Amen.
My own personal 'heresy' about water baptism?:
God Has, Under Grace [ New ' Law of faith' ], Only ONE [ Spiritual ] Baptism
That Supersedes the Old Covenant ordinance [ nailed to The Cross ] of
water baptism, under the 'law of works', eh?
For me, personally, this ONE Baptism Has Vanquished ALL of the "envy,
strife, division, And Satanic Confusion" of Many Multiplied denominational
traditions of 'water', Into Oblivion!
Thanks Be Unto God, my Eternal SAVIOR, Who Alone "Knows my heart" And
Who ALONE Will Be my "Righteous Judge"!! [ Not 'Any man' ] Amen, And Amen!
Grace, Peace, Mercy, And Love!
"For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife,
and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?" (1 Corinthians 3:3)
(cf Galatians 5:20; Philippians 1:15, 2:3; 1 Timothy 6:4; Titus 3:3; ), eh?Does God Also hate judgmentalism? How about Severe Division over water?
Amen.
My own personal 'heresy' about water baptism?:
God Has, Under Grace [ New ' Law of faith' ], Only ONE [ Spiritual ] Baptism
That Supersedes the Old Covenant ordinance [ nailed to The Cross ] of
water baptism, under the 'law of works', eh?
For me, personally, this ONE Baptism Has Vanquished ALL of the "envy,
strife, division, And Satanic Confusion" of Many Multiplied denominational
traditions of 'water', Into Oblivion!
Thanks Be Unto God, my Eternal SAVIOR, Who Alone "Knows my heart" And
Who ALONE Will Be my "Righteous Judge"!! [ Not 'Any man' ] Amen, And Amen!
Grace, Peace, Mercy, And Love!
“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
John 3:3, 5 KJV
water for remission of sins
“There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.”
John 1:6 KJV
“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.”
Mark 1:4-5 KJV
“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
Luke 3:
“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit”
“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, ( water )
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. ( spirit )
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
Acts 2:38-39
“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. ( spirit )
….Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, ( water )
which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? ( spirit )
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. ( water ) Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
Acts 10:44, 46-48 KJV
“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
Galatians 3:26-29 KJV
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16
if we just spread the word as it is people would decide themselves to get baptized for remission of sins accepting Gods free offer to all being baptized for remission of sins is part of being born again the remission of sins part children are born not having any sin already imputed on thier account
God designed all these things for purposes baptism is about repentance and remission of sins because you believe the gospel , repenting and having our sins remitted is necassary in order to be born anew and live a new life
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,
but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Romans 6:3-4, 11 KJV
Born again is a concept of th change hat happens when we repent and believe the gospel and receive the Holy Ghost baptism for remission of sins is just one part of it the part that deals with remission of sins because we believe Jesus died for our sins
John 3:3, 5 KJV
water for remission of sins
“There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.”
John 1:6 KJV
“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.”
Mark 1:4-5 KJV
“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
Luke 3:
“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit”
“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, ( water )
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. ( spirit )
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
Acts 2:38-39
“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. ( spirit )
….Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, ( water )
which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? ( spirit )
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. ( water ) Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
Acts 10:44, 46-48 KJV
“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
Galatians 3:26-29 KJV
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16
if we just spread the word as it is people would decide themselves to get baptized for remission of sins accepting Gods free offer to all being baptized for remission of sins is part of being born again the remission of sins part children are born not having any sin already imputed on thier account
God designed all these things for purposes baptism is about repentance and remission of sins because you believe the gospel , repenting and having our sins remitted is necassary in order to be born anew and live a new life
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,
but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Romans 6:3-4, 11 KJV
Born again is a concept of th change hat happens when we repent and believe the gospel and receive the Holy Ghost baptism for remission of sins is just one part of it the part that deals with remission of sins because we believe Jesus died for our sins
No. Repentance is for the remission of sins. The "water" that Christ spoke of is the "washing of water by the Word" (the Gospel). This is the "clean water" mentioned by Ezekiel, not ordinary water as many assume mistakenly. And Peter clarified what leads to the remission of sins.
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord (Acts 3:19)
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord (Acts 3:19)
I get your little rant and how/why this is so "annoying" to you, but the TRUTH is that if you're selling water baptism as part of the "price of salvation", you are wrong and truth matters. I understand what you mean and how it feels like pointless bickering, but the truth matters, and the truth is you do not have to be dunked in water before you're saved, and if anyone is teaching or telling others that it is, then they are in error and in fact selling lies. That matters and makes a difference.