Does God Know From All Eternity Who Will Die Having Rejected Sound Doctrine?
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I notice you don't engage in much exegesis of the texts you claim support you, but harry off to new verses that you then claim support you previous claims. about previous verses.
Could you go back to the verses about sheep that you posted, and explain how each one confirms that Saul was one of Jesus 'sheep as he went about persecuting Christ and His sheep in Acts 9:1-5, which you are now referencing? Thanks.
Could you go back to the verses about sheep that you posted, and explain how each one confirms that Saul was one of Jesus 'sheep as he went about persecuting Christ and His sheep in Acts 9:1-5, which you are now referencing? Thanks.
PaulThomson said:
Was Saul of Tarsus a lost sheep of the House of Israel before his conversion?
Was Saul of Tarsus knowing and listening and responding to Jesus' voice before His conversion when He was persecuting Christ?
Was Saul of Tarsus able to hear and believe Jesus before while He was rejecting Jesus?
Was Saul of Tarsus therefore one of Jesus' sheep before putting His faith in our Lord?
Youdid not answer theuestions. there are four, requiring four separate relevant answers.
Was Saul of Tarsus a lost sheep of the House of Israel before his conversion?
Was Saul of Tarsus knowing and listening and responding to Jesus' voice before His conversion when He was persecuting Christ?
Was Saul of Tarsus able to hear and believe Jesus before while He was rejecting Jesus?
Was Saul of Tarsus therefore one of Jesus' sheep before putting His faith in our Lord?
Was Saul of Tarsus a lost sheep of the House of Israel before his conversion?
Was Saul of Tarsus knowing and listening and responding to Jesus' voice before His conversion when He was persecuting Christ?
Was Saul of Tarsus able to hear and believe Jesus before while He was rejecting Jesus?
Was Saul of Tarsus therefore one of Jesus' sheep before putting His faith in our Lord?
Youdid not answer theuestions. there are four, requiring four separate relevant answers.
Was Saul of Tarsus a lost sheep of the House of Israel before his conversion?
Was Saul of Tarsus knowing and listening and responding to Jesus' voice before His conversion when He was persecuting Christ?
Was Saul of Tarsus able to hear and believe Jesus before while He was rejecting Jesus?
Was Saul of Tarsus therefore one of Jesus' sheep before putting His faith in our Lord?
PaulThomson said:
Was Saul of Tarsus a lost sheep of the House of Israel before his conversion?
Was Saul of Tarsus knowing and listening and responding to Jesus' voice before His conversion when He was persecuting Christ?
Was Saul of Tarsus able to hear and believe Jesus before while He was rejecting Jesus?
Was Saul of Tarsus therefore one of Jesus' sheep before putting His faith in our Lord?
Youdid not answer theuestions. there are four, requiring four separate relevant answers.
Was Saul of Tarsus a lost sheep of the House of Israel before his conversion?
Was Saul of Tarsus knowing and listening and responding to Jesus' voice before His conversion when He was persecuting Christ?
Was Saul of Tarsus able to hear and believe Jesus while He was rejecting Jesus?
Was Saul of Tarsus therefore one of Jesus' sheep before putting His faith in our Lord?
There were four yes/no questions. Why would they take a couple of hours to answer.
It may be that your answers are problematic to your theology and would requure two hours to present some convoluted attempt at resolving the problems, but the four questions should take 30 seconds to answer.
1. Was Saul of Tarsus a lost sheep of the House of Israel before his conversion?
2. Was Saul of Tarsus knowing and listening and responding to Jesus' voice before His conversion when he was persecuting Christ?
3. Was Saul of Tarsus able to hear and believe Jesus while He was rejecting Jesus?
4. Was Saul of Tarsus therefore one of Jesus' sheep before putting His faith in our Lord?
Was Saul of Tarsus a lost sheep of the House of Israel before his conversion?
Was Saul of Tarsus knowing and listening and responding to Jesus' voice before His conversion when He was persecuting Christ?
Was Saul of Tarsus able to hear and believe Jesus before while He was rejecting Jesus?
Was Saul of Tarsus therefore one of Jesus' sheep before putting His faith in our Lord?
Youdid not answer theuestions. there are four, requiring four separate relevant answers.
Was Saul of Tarsus a lost sheep of the House of Israel before his conversion?
Was Saul of Tarsus knowing and listening and responding to Jesus' voice before His conversion when He was persecuting Christ?
Was Saul of Tarsus able to hear and believe Jesus while He was rejecting Jesus?
Was Saul of Tarsus therefore one of Jesus' sheep before putting His faith in our Lord?
There were four yes/no questions. Why would they take a couple of hours to answer.
It may be that your answers are problematic to your theology and would requure two hours to present some convoluted attempt at resolving the problems, but the four questions should take 30 seconds to answer.
1. Was Saul of Tarsus a lost sheep of the House of Israel before his conversion?
2. Was Saul of Tarsus knowing and listening and responding to Jesus' voice before His conversion when he was persecuting Christ?
3. Was Saul of Tarsus able to hear and believe Jesus while He was rejecting Jesus?
4. Was Saul of Tarsus therefore one of Jesus' sheep before putting His faith in our Lord?
A fact is something that can be known now with certainty.
A possibility is something that may or may not happen. It cannot be known now with certainty.
Why is what I said so difficult for you to understand?
That God does know potential futures does not conflict with the open theist tenet that the future does not exist as facts that can be known.
Potential futures are possibilities that have alternative futures that could happen instead. Facts cannot be changed.
A possibility is something that may or may not happen. It cannot be known now with certainty.
Why is what I said so difficult for you to understand?
That God does know potential futures does not conflict with the open theist tenet that the future does not exist as facts that can be known.
Potential futures are possibilities that have alternative futures that could happen instead. Facts cannot be changed.
But it did not happen, so how could it be a fact that they were unfalsifiably going to do it?
When David asked, "Will they hand me over to Saul [and his numerically overwhelming military force]?" was he asking for a prediction of the actual future or of the possible most likely future IF he chose to stay in Keilah? Doesn't his question imply David did not understand the future to be fixed? Because if he had, he would have resigned himself to the facts that Saul was coming down and the city of Keilah were about to hand him over to Saul. and would have stayed in Keilah.
God was not going to sovereignly intervene and deliver David from Saul by a miracle if David did not take the simple action of leaving Keilah. So, based on His knowledge of Saul's heart and the hearts of the residents of Keilah, the overwhelming odds were that Saul would come down and Keilah would hand David over, if he was still in the city. The Hebrew tense translated "will come down" and "will hand you over" is imperfect aspect, identifying an incompleted action, and action in process at the time being referred to. If the actions were future facts, the author could use the perfect (completed) aspect forms to refer to the future events. "The text could have said, "Saul has come down (will certainly) tomorrow and Keilah has handed you over (will certainly hand you over) the next day."
Or another Hebrew structure to indicate certainty is a double use of the same word. The absolute form followed by the imperfect form. AS in God's assurances in Gen, 18:10, Future unchangeable omnipotence preserved fact "I will certainly return ShUB 'aShUB; Gen. 50:15; 1 Sam. 23:10 Past unchangeable fact "ShaMa'a ShaMa' " i.e. "I have for a fact have heard / I have certainly heard"
When David asked, "Will they hand me over to Saul [and his numerically overwhelming military force]?" was he asking for a prediction of the actual future or of the possible most likely future IF he chose to stay in Keilah? Doesn't his question imply David did not understand the future to be fixed? Because if he had, he would have resigned himself to the facts that Saul was coming down and the city of Keilah were about to hand him over to Saul. and would have stayed in Keilah.
God was not going to sovereignly intervene and deliver David from Saul by a miracle if David did not take the simple action of leaving Keilah. So, based on His knowledge of Saul's heart and the hearts of the residents of Keilah, the overwhelming odds were that Saul would come down and Keilah would hand David over, if he was still in the city. The Hebrew tense translated "will come down" and "will hand you over" is imperfect aspect, identifying an incompleted action, and action in process at the time being referred to. If the actions were future facts, the author could use the perfect (completed) aspect forms to refer to the future events. "The text could have said, "Saul has come down (will certainly) tomorrow and Keilah has handed you over (will certainly hand you over) the next day."
Or another Hebrew structure to indicate certainty is a double use of the same word. The absolute form followed by the imperfect form. AS in God's assurances in Gen, 18:10, Future unchangeable omnipotence preserved fact "I will certainly return ShUB 'aShUB; Gen. 50:15; 1 Sam. 23:10 Past unchangeable fact "ShaMa'a ShaMa' " i.e. "I have for a fact have heard / I have certainly heard"
Quick note:
1.) When PaulThomas said God knows potential futures but not the actual future, that's not word salad... it's not an "irrational" sentence.
2.) But it IS an UNBIBLICAL sentence.
3.) It is a rational statement, but it is also completely, utterly, biblically false.
4.) For example: If I say, "The moon is made of cheese", that's not word salad... it's just wrong.
Conclusion:
1.) Biblically, there are no "potential futures" about which God is uncertain, and there is no "actual future" for which God has no knowledge.
2.) Open Theism is just nonsense. It relies on hermeneutic principles which are the opposite of proper hermeneutics: Rather than starting with clear passages, and using that to define the confusing passages, it does the opposite. Much heresy is developed this way.
God Bless.
.
1.) When PaulThomas said God knows potential futures but not the actual future, that's not word salad... it's not an "irrational" sentence.
2.) But it IS an UNBIBLICAL sentence.
3.) It is a rational statement, but it is also completely, utterly, biblically false.
4.) For example: If I say, "The moon is made of cheese", that's not word salad... it's just wrong.
Conclusion:
1.) Biblically, there are no "potential futures" about which God is uncertain, and there is no "actual future" for which God has no knowledge.
2.) Open Theism is just nonsense. It relies on hermeneutic principles which are the opposite of proper hermeneutics: Rather than starting with clear passages, and using that to define the confusing passages, it does the opposite. Much heresy is developed this way.
God Bless.
.
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Collins Dictionary:
(ɪgnərənt
)
1. ADJECTIVE
If you describe someone as ignorant, you mean that they do not know things they should know. If someone is ignorant of a fact, they do not know it.
People don't like to ask questions for fear of appearing ignorant.
Many people are worryingly ignorant of the facts about global warming.
...ignorant peasants.
[Also + of/about]
Synonyms: uninformed of, unaware of, oblivious to, blind to More Synonyms of ignorant
2. ADJECTIVE
People are sometimes described as ignorant when they do something that is not polite or kind. Some people think that it is not correct to use ignorant with this meaning.
I met some very ignorant people who called me all kinds of names.
Synonyms: insensitive, gross, crude, rude More Synonyms of ignorant
The word "ignorant' has pejorative connotations, and as explained above, calling someone ignorant they don't know what they should know. Your question assumes that to be omniscient God should know as certain things that are in reality as yet uncertain.
Open theists would say God is uncertain about the future apart from some aspects of it that He has already decided to make happen and has prophesied as a sign to us of His omnipotence. But most open theists would say that God knows all the theoretically possible options that culd occur in the future, and that God knoews the relative probabilities of these options barring His omnipotent intervention.
(ɪgnərənt
1. ADJECTIVE
If you describe someone as ignorant, you mean that they do not know things they should know. If someone is ignorant of a fact, they do not know it.
People don't like to ask questions for fear of appearing ignorant.
Many people are worryingly ignorant of the facts about global warming.
...ignorant peasants.
[Also + of/about]
Synonyms: uninformed of, unaware of, oblivious to, blind to More Synonyms of ignorant
2. ADJECTIVE
People are sometimes described as ignorant when they do something that is not polite or kind. Some people think that it is not correct to use ignorant with this meaning.
I met some very ignorant people who called me all kinds of names.
Synonyms: insensitive, gross, crude, rude More Synonyms of ignorant
The word "ignorant' has pejorative connotations, and as explained above, calling someone ignorant they don't know what they should know. Your question assumes that to be omniscient God should know as certain things that are in reality as yet uncertain.
Open theists would say God is uncertain about the future apart from some aspects of it that He has already decided to make happen and has prophesied as a sign to us of His omnipotence. But most open theists would say that God knows all the theoretically possible options that culd occur in the future, and that God knoews the relative probabilities of these options barring His omnipotent intervention.