Does God Know From All Eternity Who Will Die Having Rejected Sound Doctrine?

[Magenta]

Is.45:18. ...God Himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it; he created it not in vain. He formed it to be inhabited...

Hi,Magenta.

Who did God form the earth to be inhabited by?

You said yourself:

Eternity has a latin root which means without time. Infinite also has a latin root, but means without a finish/end.
An eternal God would exist without experiencing time in His usual dimension of existence. He would be timeless.

So why do you disagree that time was created in the beginning?

It does not say, "In the beginning of time God created the heavens and the earth."
nor "in the beginning God created time when He created the heavens and the earth."

 

[posthuman]

So why do you disagree that time was created in the beginning?

"in the beginning" strongly implies that there is a beginning. it's not referring to the beginning of the heavens or the earth because those are created "in" that beginning.
there's nothing left for it "beginning" to refer to but time; the beginning of time.
after the things done in that beginning it is called the "first" day.

in John 1:1 God already "was" in the beginning. strongly implying that He pre-exists time. hence time is not a property of God but of physical creation.

 

[PaulThomson]

In Post 159 you admitted to knowing that "open theism flatly states that God has no knowledge of what you will do next unless you happen to be fulfilling a specific prophecy He is bringing about."

So you know I said God can fulfil prophecies of distant events , as I will show below: by engaging His omnipotence to limit human actions tothose that will bring His prediction to pass.

Post 337 I said

God exists with holiness, with goodness, with lovingkindness, and many other attributes. Is he bound by these and therefore less than these in any way? Temporality is an attribute of God that impinges on His creation, like any other of His attributes.

Another straw man from you? I have nowhere said anything that corresponds with your charge that "your argument for a God with lack of knowledge has been that He can only observe mankind in the present and make short term predictions about our actions and thoughts by interpreting our synapses as they occur."

God is omnipotent. That means He can predict anything He wants to at any time in history and make it happen at any time later in hstory by limiting creatures actions, without controlling their desires/will, to channel history toward the fulfilment of those predictions. He does not need exhaustive foreknowledge to do that. Why do you think he would need exhaustive foreknowledge to do that?

I was also making the point that God does not need exhaustive fore-knowkedge to interpret my present brain activity as I prepare to speak and know by that activity what I am about to say before I say it.

And I am also making the point that infinite/unlimited/uncountable knowledge and understanding do not require knowledge of the future, since knowledge of the everlasting past and the present is already infinite, since it reaches back limitlessly into the past. But that infinite knowledge can also be added to as the present changes and life proceeds forward in time.

None of these concepts are difficult to grasp. Admitting them to be reasonable would remove your grounds for insisting that God must have exhaustive eternal unchanging foreknowledge. And that is probably why you are having trouble grasping them.

So why, rather than refuting with reasons ny actual statements, are you misrepresenting my statements, and erecting straw men to mock instead?

your argument has been all along that that God is ignorant of the future:

because, you say, it's impossible to know the future, even for God:

in justifying that, you explained that you view God to be able to predict what we will say or do only a matter of seconds at most beforehand, by observing our brain waves.

thus you have in fact said exactly as i summarized:
that God is necessarily ignorant of the future and can only make short term predictions through His divine MRI technology and limited neuroscience capabilities.

that's open theism to a T, and in my opinion it's incompatible with scripture.

Please honestly represent the views of the ,posters you are critiquing. Ifyu can't launch an honest coherent argument against my open
theist propositions, just admit you can't. But please don't put a weaker argument into my mouth to create the impression for casual readers that you addressed and rebutted myactual views.

 

[PaulThomson]

You said yourself:
Eternity has a latin root which means without time. Infinite also has a latin root, but means without a finish/end.
An eternal God would exist without experiencing time in His usual dimension of existence. He would be timeless.

So why do you disagree that time was created in the beginning?

I do not agree that there is an eternal i.e. timeless God. That is why I used the subjunctive hypothetical "would" . Scripture says God is without beginning and without end. God was and is and is to come. He is temporal.
If I were describing the genesis/origin of anything, such as the internet, I would say "In the beginning so-and-so theorised that in future households, businesses and other entities would be linked together and communicate with one another through personal computers".. And I would not be implying that "the beginning" was simultaneous with the beginning of time; nor that time was created when the internet was conceived of. Likewise, when scripture says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, the theme of the book will indicate what this beginning is of, namely the origins of mankind and man's relationship with God. It does not imply that time began at this beginning, any more than time began with the concept of the internet. Those who assume timelessness preceded the creation, read their cosmology into the text, but their cosmology is not inherent to the text.
.Logically, if God is eternal and knows all the future, all evil that ever has or will occur in the cosmos was invented by God in His eternal imagination before any other thing existed. This severely compromises the biblical claim that God is holy. So, I reject the eternal God hypotheses and prefer the from everlasting to everlasting God hypothesis.

 

[PaulThomson]

"in the beginning" strongly implies that there is a beginning. it's not referring to the beginning of the heavens or the earth because those are created "in" that beginning.
there's nothing left for it "beginning" to refer to but time; the beginning of time.
after the things done in that beginning it is called the "first" day.

in John 1:1 God already "was" in the beginning. strongly implying that He pre-exists time. hence time is not a property of God but of physical creation.

In the beginning of the story of man's origin and God's dealings with man,kind, God created the heavens and the earth in six days. And this is how it was done. On the first day of the creation of the heavens and the earth God created light....... etc.
That is the natural sense of the language IMHO.

 

[PaulThomson]

If He doesn't know His sheep until after they decide to be His sheep, who is He out calling, seeking and saving?

other people's sheep? is He a thief?

other people's goats He is going to poach and turn into sheep?

were we goats who transformed ourselves into sheep? does He adopt us or do we adopt Him?


what does scripture say, how does scripture describe this?
scripture describes Him knowing His sheep and searching them out, and knowing who are not His sheep. scripture describes His sheep knowing His voice, hearing it and responding - and those who are not His sheep being unable to hear, specifically because they are not His sheep. scripture describes Him finding His lost sheep, laying them. on His shoulder and carrying them home, rejoicing.
scripture does not describe wandering ownerless goats taking it upon themselves to turn themselves into sheep and choose their own Shepherd.

He is out calling and saving lost sheep who are anxious and harassed, who have no shepherd. Mark 6:34, Matt. 9:36

You need to cite your verses that you believe support your view. Yes He knows those who are already His sheep, and those sheep know Him. But there are other sheep who are not yet in HIs flock that He seeks and finds and rescues.

 

[posthuman]

So why, rather than refuting with reasons ny actual statements, are you misrepresenting my statements, and erecting straw men to mock instead?

um, not mocking you - you said you had never said some things, and I went and quoted where you had actually said exactly those things.

 

[PaulThomson]

It says the eve and the morn where the first day. Then repeats that to day four when God further gives us the sun and moon and defines that the dividing of eve and day is times and seasons. So we had time from the onset then God gave us a watch to keep it.

We also have when God harkens back to man's creation and the generations thereafter. He did so as a chronical which is nothing less than time as well.

My life. "It all started when I was born in Whangarei at 4 pm on a Tuesday."
Oh, look. I mentioned elements of time,. Do I therefore mean time was created when I was born? And I said it all started, so does that mean that everything that exists began when I was born?

 

[posthuman]

You need to cite your verses that you believe support your view.

my apologies for presuming you are already familiar with scripture.
when i get a little time i will give citations for all the things i mentioned about sheep.

But there are other sheep who are not yet in HIs flock that He seeks and finds and rescues.

can you likewise give scripture showing that He already has sheep that aren't yet His sheep?

earlier you said you don't become His sheep until you decide to be His sheep. but He calls those not belonging to Him goats, not sheep, and divides them from the sheep at the end of the age.

 

[PaulThomson]

It says the eve and the morn where the first day. Then repeats that to day four when God further gives us the sun and moon and defines that the dividing of eve and day is times and seasons. So we had time from the onset then God gave us a watch to keep it.

We also have when God harkens back to man's creation and the generations thereafter. He did so as a chronical which is nothing less than time as well.

My life. "It all started when I was born in Whangarei at 4 pm on a Tuesday."
Oh, look. I mentioned elements of time,. Do I therefore mean time was created when I was born? And I said it all started, so does that mean that everything that exists began when I was born?

 

[posthuman]

He is out calling and saving lost sheep who are anxious and harassed, who have no shepherd. Mark 6:34, Matt. 9:36

see Zechariah 11:17

they are not ownerless. a wicked servant appointed as their shepherd abandoned them.

 

[posthuman]

In the beginning of the story of man's origin and God's dealings with man,kind, God created the heavens and the earth in six days. And this is how it was done. On the first day of the creation of the heavens and the earth God created light....... etc.
That is the natural sense of the language IMHO.

the Bible is not about mankind, but about Christ. and the Bible is not simple.

Christ has no beginning - He is God.

so Genesis 1:1 by saying "beginning" is not speaking of the beginning of Christ - and it is not speaking of the beginning of man, either, who was not created until the 6th Yom.

by saying "beginning" He indicates something that was created and did not pre-exist. and He does not say 'the beginning of the heavens and the earth' but in the beginning, they were created.
so the beginning is before the heavens and the earth.
What then is created before the heavens and the earth?

 

[PaulThomson]

um, not mocking you - you said you had never said some things, and I went and quoted where you had actually said exactly those things.

I cited my own words, and you dishonestly paraphrased my words inaccurately to make it appear to others that you have refuted my actual statements. readers cn compare my actual words to the words you put into my mouth, and decide for themselves who is telling the truth.

 

[PaulThomson]

see Zechariah 11:17

they are not ownerless. a wicked servant appointed as their shepherd abandoned them.

Is. 53:6 we are ALL sheep (putting the simile of Is 53:6 into a metaphor). 1 Pet. 2:25 we were all sheep gone astray. Is it your view that every person is already His sheep?

 

[SilverFox7]

In the beginning, there were no humans and no history of humans to record. God being an
eternally self-existent Being, there is no beginning or end. In the beginning signifies the
beginning of creation: the creation of the universe and all that is in it. What need of time
is there without a physical universe? It is taken to mean, then, that time was brought into
existence then also, such as there being nights and days, which is the passage of time.

Our finite minds cannot comprehend the Infinite without the Holy Spirit. A simple question that cannot be answered scientifically is infinity into the past. It doesn't make sense, and it defies logic and rational thought. Let's say the Big Bang was the beginning of the universe and evolution in general. Well, what caused that? And, whatever caused the Big Bang, what caused that, and on and on it goes into infinity past. God is eternal--that's the simple yet profound answer the Bible provides.

We are living in a critical point in history. Forces of evil are hard at work, and we as forces of light need to be vigilent as well. The war in Palestine and the war in Ukraine that has oddly slipped into the background could be precursors of larger conflicts to come with the "free world" at war with tyranny. I am stunned at the acceleration rate, and we are even more baffled as a species trying to solve these complex conflicts and maintain stability. I'm not jumping on the Armageddon bandwagon yet, but we are certainly facing World War III right now (already in the works economically, technologically, and the various proxy fights happening around the globe).

Thanks be to God that we are His ambassadors, children, and warriors. He will fight the battles for us, and I am thrilled to be one of His soldiers to overthrow the forces of darkness led by the prince of darkness, Satan. Victory belongs to our God, Jesus our Lord and Savior!

 

[posthuman]

I cited my own words, and you dishonestly paraphrased my words inaccurately to make it appear to others that you have refuted my actual statements. readers cn compare my actual words to the words you put into my mouth, and decide for themselves who is telling the truth.

i only quoted the particular point I was replying to.

That's not dishonest.

 

[posthuman]

when scripture says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, the theme of the book will indicate what this beginning is of, namely the origins of mankind and man's relationship with God.

the theme of the Bible is not mankind.
the theme of the Bible is Christ.

 

[posthuman]

In Post 159 you admitted to knowing that "open theism flatly states that God has no knowledge of what you will do next unless you happen to be fulfilling a specific prophecy He is bringing about."

So you know I said God can fulfil prophecies of distant events , as I will show below: by engaging His omnipotence to limit human actions tothose that will bring His prediction to pass.

that open theism confesses a path for God to bring about what He has told His prophets will come to pass does not in any way diminish the fact that open theism considers God to be ignorant writ large of the future.

i, as a mere mortal being, can determine that i will go to the grocery store on Sunday. i can then do everything in my power to bring about the eventuality of my purpose. but i still can't accurately predict anyone's actions that may interfere with my plans more than 10 seconds in advance.

oopen theism puts God in the same category as me: able to act within His power in order to try to bring about His purpose, but ultimately completely ignorant of the future, even if, granted, He's pretty good at profiling.

 

[PaulThomson]

that open theism confesses a path for God to bring about what He has told His prophets will come to pass does not in any way diminish the fact that open theism considers God to be ignorant writ large of the future.

i, as a mere mortal being, can determine that i will go to the grocery store on Sunday. i can then do everything in my power to bring about the eventuality of my purpose. but i still can't accurately predict anyone's actions that may interfere with my plans more than 10 seconds in advance.

oopen theism puts God in the same category as me: able to act within His power in order to try to bring about His purpose, but ultimately completely ignorant of the future, even if, granted, He's pretty good at profiling.

That is simply a false accusation against and a false representation of open theism.You need to listen better. In open theism God can predict things 4000 years ahead, making them happen by applying His omnipotence, omnipresence and exhaustive infinite/uncountable knowledge of the beginningless past and the present. So it is absolutely false to claim, as you do here that:
1. open theism puts God in the same category as me
2. That an omnipotent God has to try to bring about His [prophesied] purpose
3. That God is completely ignorant of the future (when future means "events that will eventally become real". He knows those events that he promises unconditionally will happen.

I would argue that the open theist's understanding of God fits the scripture, observable reality and logic much better than the set of dogmatic assertions about God, held together by appeals to mystery, and formulated by men centuries after the NT was written by applying Plato's metaphysics to the Hebrew scriptures. Let's have a reasoned discussion which honestly repesents the claims of the other sides and does not resort to logically valid rhetorical devices.

 

[PaulThomson]

the theme of the Bible is not mankind.
the theme of the Bible is Christ.

That sounds very spirtual and Christocentric, but its theme includes a lot more than Christ. Jesus did not say "You search the scriptures ... but they speak only of me."
Also, I was referring to the theme of the book of Genesis, the book of beginnings.