Sunday Worship?

[Aaron56]

Jesus was, if you can receive it, the final sacrifice under the Law. By this, He saved all men from the Law of sin and death.

 

[Soyeong]

Do you accept that anything that is not from faith is sin?

Indeed. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, so whatever is in disobedience to it is not of faith, whatever is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23), and whatever is in transgression of the Mosaic Law is sin (1 Joh 3:4).

What is the difference between transgressing one rule and not another?

Sin is disobedience against all that God has taught us.

Agreed.

It would be terribly misleading to say to someone that they should not kill. Knowing full well that even the thought of killing someone is the equivalent sin. Even calling someone a fool is carries the same penalty. Same goes for adultery, heaven forbid, that you would tell someone not to commit adultery. When you know that even looking at someone with lust is a direct violation of the commandment.

The Torah instructs. not to hate our neighbor (Leviticus 19:17) and looking at a woman with lust in our hearts is in violation of both the 7th and 10th Commandments against adultery and coveting in our hearts, so Jesus did not teach anything brand new. There is nothing misleading about teaching people to obey what God has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow.

You need to upgrade your approach in Christianity. I would never direct someone to obey the ten commandments. Simply because that is a profound error. Jesus is calling you to a much higher level of morality, a holiness that is not implicit in the written commandments.

Soyeong, wake up.

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law is how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. So by saying that you would never call anyone to obey it, you are saying that you would never spread the Gospel that Jesus commissioned his disciples to spread. Nowhere did Jesus say that he was calling us to a much higher level of morality, and even if Jesus could have done that without disqualifying himself as our Savior, that would mean that at the very least we should obey the Torah plus whatever else he raised the bar to.

 

[JimmyTheLock]

Jesus also taught how to keep the 7th day holy through his interactions with the Pharisees on the topic.

The OT law also teaches you must make a sacrifice to cover your sins.
What kind of animals are you whackin and how often?

IF you are not doing this, then you are in violation of the OT law and on your way to hell.

Actually you are anyway according to Galatians 5:4 but of course those following the OT law do not accept the New Testament.

 

[Soyeong]

Sure. But why do you focus on the law, and not Jesus?

God's law is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so being focused on God's law is being focused on Jesus. Jesus is the radiance of God's glory and he exact image of God's character (Hebrews 1:3), so if all of the invisible character traits of God like holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faith, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control that God's law was given as a gift to teach us how to practice were personified into the form of a body that we can see, then that would be the Son, which he practiced by living in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law.

 

[Soyeong]

Compensatory history much? Jesus was born under the Law and gave Himself so that all men who received Him could be redeemed as children of promise who were NEVER under the Law.

I demonstrated with Scripture that the children of the promise are those who have been taught to turn from their wickedness and walk in God's way in obedience to the Torah in accordance to spreading the Gospel, so your denial falls flat. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross. Likewise, obedience to God's word in accordance with the God's that God's word made flesh taught is the way to receive him.

The Mosaic Law is how we know what sins (Romans 3:20), so if someone were never under it, then they would have no need to refrain from sin, no need to repent, no need for grace, no need for the Gospel, no need for salvation, and no need. for Jesus to have given himself to redeem us from all lawlessness, though the reality is that God is sovereign, so we are all under His law and obligated to refrain from sin.

 

[Soyeong]

Jesus was, if you can receive it, the final sacrifice under the Law. By this, He saved all men from the Law of sin and death.

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah is the way to receive what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20).

In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit with the law of sin and death, so he equated the Law of God with the Law of the Spirit, and the Law of Moses is referred to as the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-23. This straightforwardly makes sense because the Law of Moses was given by God and the Spirit is God, so it is the Law of the Spirit. Moreover, in Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.

 

[JimmyTheLock]

God's law is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so being focused on God's law is being focused on Jesus. Jesus is the radiance of God's glory and he exact image of God's character (Hebrews 1:3), so if all of the invisible character traits of God like holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faith, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control that God's law was given as a gift to teach us how to practice were personified into the form of a body that we can see, then that would be the Son, which he practiced by living in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law.

So another words you are not actually keeping the whole law even though you claim we should be?

 

[Soyeong]

The OT law also teaches you must make a sacrifice to cover your sins.
What kind of animals are you whackin and how often?

IF you are not doing this, then you are in violation of the OT law and on your way to hell.

The Israelites were given a number of laws that had the condition "when you enter the land..." while they were still wandering the wilderness for 40 years, so there is nothing wrong with not following a law that can't currently be followed. When the Israelites were exiled in Babylon, the condition for their return to the land was to return to obedience to the Torah, which contained commands in regard to temple practice that couldn't be followed because the temple had just been destroyed, so God honored their obedience to the commands that they were able to obey. In 2 Chronicles 30:15-20, Hezekiah prayed that God would pardon everyone who sets his heart to seek God even through that had not acted in accordance with the sanctuaries rules of cleanness and God heard him and healed the people. This was also taught to early Christians:

Didache 6:2 For if you are able to bear all the yoke of the Lord, you will be perfect; but if you are not able, what you are able that do.

So while there are illegitimate reasons for not following certain laws (James 2:1-11), there are also legitimate reasons for not follow them.

Actually you are anyway according to Galatians 5:4 but of course those following the OT law do not accept the New Testament.

All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to the Mosaic Law, and even Christ began his ministry with that message, so it would be absurd to interpret Galatians 5:4 as Paul speaking against doing that and warning that we will be cut off from Christ if we follow Christ. In Psalms 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, so that is what it means to be under grace, and it would again be absurd to think that he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him how to fall from grace.

You should be quicker to think that you've misunderstood the book of Galatians than to think that it makes perfect sense to interpret as teaching us to rebel against God's commands, and the bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so even if your interpretation of Galatians were correct, you should be quicker to disregard everything said in the book than to disregard anything that God has commanded. If it comes down to obeying what God has commanded or obeying Paul, then it should not be difficult to figure out which one has the higher authority and which one we should follow, though the reality is that Paul was a servant of God who never spoke against anyone obeying anything that He has commanded, so it doesn't need to come down to that.

I used to be against obeying the Mosaic Law, so I've seen how the NT can be interpreted as speaking against it, but I've tried interpreting Paul as though he meant what he said in Romans 7:22 that he delighted in obeying the Mosaic Law, so I've also seen how it can be interpreted as being in favor of obeying the Mosaic Law, and it makes far more sense to interpret God's word as being in favor of obeying God's word. In Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those who delight in obeying the Torah of the Lord and who meditate on it day and night, and we can't believe in the truth of these words as Scripture while not allowing them to shape our view of the Mosaic Law.

 

[Soyeong]

So another words you are not actually keeping the whole law even though you claim we should be?

I don't see how your question relates to the post that you replied to. The issue of what I keeping is independent of the issue of whether followers of God should follow what God has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow. I do obey the Mosaic Law, though even if I were the biggest hypocrite in the world and living in complete disobedience to it, then that would just mean that I should repent, not that I was wrong that we should obey the Mosaic Law.

 

[DRobinson]

I don't see how your question relates to the post that you replied to. The issue of what I keeping is independent of the issue of whether followers of God should follow what God has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow. I do obey the Mosaic Law, though even if I were the biggest hypocrite in the world and living in complete disobedience to it, then that would just mean that I should repent, not that I was wrong that we should obey the Mosaic Law.

Notice it is called THE LAW .
One law with many parts.
You violate one part, as not making an offering, you are in violation of THE LAW.
No one keeps THE LAW'
Those who say they do are a liar.
To lie is sin.

 

[Soyeong]

Notice it is called THE LAW .
One law with many parts.
You violate one part, as not making an offering, you are in violation of THE LAW.
No one keeps THE LAW'
Those who say they do are a liar.
To lie is sin.

Jesus didn't follow the laws in regard to having a period or to giving birth, but that does not mean that he was sinning, so it is not a sin to not follow a law that can't be followed. If someone does break a law that they should be following, then they need to repent and return to keeping it. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult for us to keep and that keeping it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that no one can keep, and this passage is referenced in Romans 10:5-8 as the word of faith that we proclaim. Furthermore, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to keep His commandments, which are not burdensome, believing that we can keep God's law is a matter of putting our faith in His word while denying that we can keep it is denying that anyone has ever loved God and denying that he commandments are not burdensome. Moreover, there are examples of people who kept God's commandments, such as in Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14.

 

[Aaron56]

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah is the way to receive what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20).

In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit with the law of sin and death, so he equated the Law of God with the Law of the Spirit, and the Law of Moses is referred to as the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-23. This straightforwardly makes sense because the Law of Moses was given by God and the Spirit is God, so it is the Law of the Spirit. Moreover, in Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.

”For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”

The Law served its purpose: to protect the people through whom Christ would come. We don’t curse the Law, that’s like cursing the crib that protected the baby. No, the Law was perfect and it perfectly performed its duty. God’s word never returns void.

You are wanting to go back under the Law, claiming that it obligates God to bless you. The Law, in fact, always curses those who are under it: even Jesus. “Cursed is he that hangs upon a tree.” But, because He was the One of promise, with no sin, death had no power over Him. This is why He holds the keys to Death and Hell, not the Law.

This is the last thing I will say to you on this matter: all men are righteous before God in Christ alone.

 

[DRobinson]

Jesus didn't follow the laws in regard to having a period or to giving birth, but that does not mean that he was sinning, so it is not a sin to not follow a law that can't be followed. If someone does break a law that they should be following, then they need to repent and return to keeping it. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult for us to keep and that keeping it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that no one can keep, and this passage is referenced in Romans 10:5-8 as the word of faith that we proclaim. Furthermore, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to keep His commandments, which are not burdensome, believing that we can keep God's law is a matter of putting our faith in His word while denying that we can keep it is denying that anyone has ever loved God and denying that he commandments are not burdensome. Moreover, there are examples of people who kept God's commandments, such as in Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14.

Notice what you said,
"it is not a sin to not follow a law that cannot be followed"
"it says that God's law is not too difficult for us to keep"
"So it was presented as a possibility and a choice, not as something that no one can keep"
Which statement are we to believe?
There not many laws but ONE LAW with many parts.
To not keep any part is to not keep the Law.
Another person that changes Scripture to fit their belief,

 

[Mem]

it is free freedom that God sets us free, not for slavery that He sets us free.

it is sin in transgression of God's law that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free.

Martha Martha Martha.... Mary has chosen the good parut d her.
Martha grumbled at him to make Mary 'obey' her own wishes that Mary do more, like her, under the pretense of doing it all for Jesus, of course. But at who was Jesus' rebuke directed toward?

How should I harmonize your statements in summary?

God has set us free from sin by setting us free from slavery to sin, which is transgression of God's law, by giving us the truth to set us free from that which puts us in bondage, which was transgressing God's law. And now you are free from transgressing God's law by following God's law, just like Martha. And indeed, many people think very highly of Martha and so there is always that impetus, that men speak highly of you. Martha was appealing for the Lord's justice.

However, Mary chose the good part. She recognized the true Gem amongst the glass bobbles and rested in the presence of His Grace. All the pages and pages of 'correction' you've written, and no doubt will continue to offer in the pretense of instruction in 'how to believe in Jesus' will do no good in trying to take His Presence from me.

Nor will it really garner you very many accolades from men, actually, because, unlike God's favor, man's favor is fickle and "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."

Keep on thinking that your sabbath keeping makes you righteous, because, well, that's what you're determined to think. The law is good, sure, and you can focus on every part of the law if you like, but what good does it do you if you continue to overlook the Mercy Seat and His blood shed upon it that is witness of better things?

 

[Nehemiah6]

[QUOTE="KohenMatt, post: 5173162, member: 167008"]That's why Jesus said to obey and teach the commandments (including Sabbath).[/QUOTE]You forget that Jesus said that He is Lord of the Sabbath. So He decides what must be done with the Sabbath. And He instructed Paul to tell us that He is the reality and the Sabbath days are simply shadows.

Do you seriously think that Paul was not being instructed by Christ? Jesus made it crystal clear that the first day of the week ( the morrow after the Sabbath) was far more significant than the last day of the previous week. Therefore He also waited for eight days before coming to meet Thomas who wanted proof of His resurrection. And Thomas worshipped Him on that first day of the second week. If Christians cannot see this and keep reverting to the Torah, they simply do not understand the importance of the Day of Resurrection -- also called "the Lord's Day" by the apostle John. He was "in the Spirit" on the Lord's Day. Does that mean anything to you?

 

[Soyeong]

”For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing God and Jesus is the goal of the law, which is eternal life (John 17:3), which is also why Jesus said that obedience to God's commandments is the way to enter eternal life (Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28).

In Romans 9:30-10:4, they had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the law by pursuing it as through righteousness were earned as the result of obeying it rather than pursuing the law as through righteousness were through faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, this faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult for us to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God rose him from the dead (Titus 2:14). So nothing in this passage has anything to do with ending the Mosaic Law, especially because it is eternal (Psalms 119:160).

The Law served its purpose: to protect the people through whom Christ would come. We don’t curse the Law, that’s like cursing the crib that protected the baby. No, the Law was perfect and it perfectly performed its duty. God’s word never returns void.

God's word leads us to God's word made flesh because it is God's instructions for how to know Him, or in other words, for how to have a relationship with him, but does not lead us to Christ so that we can then reject everything he taught and go back to living in sin.

You are wanting to go back under the Law, claiming that it obligates God to bless you. The Law, in fact, always curses those who are under it: even Jesus. “Cursed is he that hangs upon a tree.” But, because He was the One of promise, with no sin, death had no power over Him. This is why He holds the keys to Death and Hell, not the Law.

God is eternally sovereign, so there has never been a time when anyone was not under His law, which means that it is impossible to go back under it. The Bible repeatedly states that obedience to it to it brings a blessing, such as in Deuteronomy 30:15-20, obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! In Deuteronomy 28, relying on the Mosaic Law is the way to be blessed while not relying on it is the way to be cursed. In Psalms 119:1-3, those who obey the Mosaic Law will be blessed. Earthly fathers don't give instructions to their children in order to curse them, so it is that much more true of our Heavenly Father who knows how to give gifts that our for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). Everyone being under a curse does not reflect the recorded reality of those who served God, just those who chased after other gods.

This is the last thing I will say to you on this matter: all men are righteous before God in Christ alone.

According to 1 John 2:6, only those who are following Christ's example of walking in obedience to the Mosaic Law are in Christ alone.

 

[Soyeong]

Notice what you said,
"it is not a sin to not follow a law that cannot be followed"
"it says that God's law is not too difficult for us to keep"
"So it was presented as a possibility and a choice, not as something that no one can keep"
Which statement are we to believe?
There not many laws but ONE LAW with many parts.
To not keep any part is to not keep the Law.
Another person that changes Scripture to fit their belief,

There is a difference between a law being too difficult to obey and a law not having its conditions men. For example, men can't follow the laws in regard to having a period or to giving birth because men don't meet the condition of being women, not because they are too difficult to obey. There is no temple in which to practice the laws in regard to temple practice, so again, it is an issue of the condition not being met, not is regard to those laws being too difficult to obey. It is not possible to keep the command to keep the 7th day holy during the other six days because the condition of it being the 7th day is not met, not because resting is too difficult.

If someone breaks a law and becomes a lawbreaker, then they need to repent and return to obedience through faith. I've not changed Scripture to fit my belief.

 

[Soyeong]

Martha Martha Martha.... Mary has chosen the good parut d her.
Martha grumbled at him to make Mary 'obey' her own wishes that Mary do more, like her, under the pretense of doing it all for Jesus, of course. But at who was Jesus' rebuke directed toward?

How should I harmonize your statements in summary?

God has set us free from sin by setting us free from slavery to sin, which is transgression of God's law, by giving us the truth to set us free from that which puts us in bondage, which was transgressing God's law. And now you are free from transgressing God's law by following God's law, just like Martha. And indeed, many people think very highly of Martha and so there is always that impetus, that men speak highly of you. Martha was appealing for the Lord's justice.

However, Mary chose the good part. She recognized the true Gem amongst the glass bobbles and rested in the presence of His Grace. All the pages and pages of 'correction' you've written, and no doubt will continue to offer in the pretense of instruction in 'how to believe in Jesus' will do no good in trying to take His Presence from me.

Nor will it really garner you very many accolades from men, actually, because, unlike God's favor, man's favor is fickle and "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."

Keep on thinking that your sabbath keeping makes you righteous, because, well, that's what you're determined to think. The law is good, sure, and you can focus on every part of the law if you like, but what good does it do you if you continue to overlook the Mercy Seat and His blood shed upon it that is witness of better things?

You are blatantly taking that out of context. The issue of Mary and Martha was about their priorities, not about someone choosing to obey God making the wrong choice as opposed to someone choosing to rebel against His commands. Obedience to God has nothing to do with pride, God's law is not His instructions for how to be prideful, but just the opposite. I've never claimed that keeping the Sabbath makes us righteous, so that is a straw man. I've said nothing about overlooking the Mercy Seat and his shed blood.

In Psalms 119:29, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself the content of His gift of salvation, so that is the way to rest in God's grace. In Jeremiah 6:16-19, the Mosaic Law is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls.

 

[Mem]

the Mosaic Law is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls.

Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life..."
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest
"....But he who has been forgiven little, loves little."
Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."...
And Jesus told the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

 

[oyster67]

If they were not pleasing to God, then He would not have instructed them. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trust worthy (Psalms 19:7), so God is pleased when we have faith in Him by having faith in what He has instructed, not when we treat what He has instructed as being untrustworthy.

Mark 2:27
“And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:”

so God is pleased when we have faith in Him

Yes!
Now you're cookin' wit gaaassssss!