Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[turbosixx]

Hello turbo. Thanks for your Q. It's good to discuss this emotive subject in a friendly manner and share viewpoints. I'll think about what you said. That's a tough passage you quoted, in more ways than one!

In 1 Corinthians 5 there's a specific case then a general principle.

Verse 5: hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

This man in verse 5 who is handed over to Satan, the purpose it says is that his spirit maybe saved. A shock to cause him to repent. If he is indeed born again he will be saved.

Verse 11: But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler.

The key word in verse 11 is 'claims'. Claiming is not automatically being. Professing to know God but denying him by their works (Titus 1:16). It reminds me of the Lord Jesus talking about watching for wolves in sheep's clothing (Matthew 7:15). A wolf was never a sheep, it's a predator in disguise. When a wolf is unmasked as a wolf it hasn't lost it's salvation, it hasn't lost it's membership of the flock, it was never of the flock to begin with. So booting an immoral person out, it seems like protecting the flock from a wolf in disguise, however in the perhaps less likely case of verse 5, a born again believer in some dreadful situation, the shock of being turned over to Satan is that he may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Hope this is of some interest, God Bless

I believe sharing viewpoints is how we test what we believe to be truth. It's easy to believe something, it's a whole other matter to defend it.

There is a lot to this situation but to keep it short, I agree with your optional assessment. You said however in the perhaps less likely case of verse 5, a born again believer in some dreadful situation, the shock of being turned over to Satan is that he may be saved on the day of the Lord.

I suggest the passage does not tell us he was an unbeliever. Without more evidence, as you pointed out "so called" brother could mean an unbeliever. Thankfully we have 2 Cor. that shows us the heart of this man. When the church turned him over to Satan they did so too aggressively. Paul tells them to back off.

2 Cor. 2:5 Now if anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to all of you. 6 For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough, 7 so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. 9 For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything. 10 Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, 11 so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs.

I understand this situation as he is a believer and was in a sinful situation and didn't realize it. Paul tells them to turn him over to Satan to (1) cleanse the church and (2) hopefully save his soul. The punishment worked and they were to welcome him back with love.

I believe this situation illustrates this verse.
James 5:19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

 

[rogerg]

I should have asked if we could take it slow, sorry. If we put too much out there at one time, points tend to get buried and never realized. I’m glad you use scripture and explain your understanding of the scripture. You’ve made a lot of statements I would love to address and hopefully we will in time. So If it's ok with you, I would like to go back to the point I was trying to make.

You said and remain so, by what Christ alone did, not by what they may do or not do. I submitted my rebuttal proof text in Matt. 25 because it directly addressed your statement.
Your reply The "lambs" of Matthew 25 were made so by Christ Could you point to the part of the passage, and/or context of the chapter, that tells us that?

Sure, that's a great way to have a discussion - good idea.

Doesn't Mat 10:16 itself tell us that - it being self-contained? To me, they were explicitly identified as such by Jesus in that He was the one who had made them sheep and sent them forth as sheep. Since Jesus called them sheep (and He is God), then in the Christian/biblical sense, they definitely were sheep, weren't they?
I guess a more direct answer would be because Jesus said so. Is more than that needed?
If I remember correctly, my point was that it is Jesus alone who makes men into His sheep, not the reverse.

Here are a few more:

Notice in the following, that only His sheep can hear His voice, but to be able to do so, they must first be His sheep.
It doesn't happen in the reverse - being His sheep first, hearing, afterwards.

[Jhn 10:27 KJV] 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Notice in the following, they were already designated as His sheep before they can hear His voice, again. It doesn't happen
in the reverse.

[Jhn 10:16 KJV] 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

Notice in the following, that He was sent to His "lost sheep"; that is, though being lost, they were already His sheep - before He was made known to them.
[Mat 15:24 KJV] 24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

 

[rogerg]

I should have asked if we could take it slow, sorry. If we put too much out there at one time, points tend to get buried and never realized. I’m glad you use scripture and explain your understanding of the scripture. You’ve made a lot of statements I would love to address and hopefully we will in time. So If it's ok with you, I would like to go back to the point I was trying to make.

You said and remain so, by what Christ alone did, not by what they may do or not do. I submitted my rebuttal proof text in Matt. 25 because it directly addressed your statement.
Your reply The "lambs" of Matthew 25 were made so by Christ Could you point to the part of the passage, and/or context of the chapter, that tells us that?

So, I what should have also included in my prior post (but was only on my first cup of coffee), is that the sheep of Matthew 25, 33 - 34, represent exactly the same sheep as identified in my prior post to you, which, were the chosen of God as sheep from before the foundation of the world.

In the following verse (the verse immediately after the one you used as proof text), notice the "for you". So, not only was the kingdom prepared by God from the foundation of the world, but it was prepared for, only for, those of the " for you", and was created for the "for you from the foundation of the world - hope that make sense - if not, let me know and I'll try to clarify. This also means that those whom Jesus was specifically addressing, were of the "for you", too, and if of the "for you", then they were His sheep, which brings us back to Mat 10:16 - that His chosen, from before the foundation of the world, are His sheep.


[Mat 25:33-34 KJV]
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

In the following verse, notice that the "for you" of above - or the "chosen us" of this verse - are they whom God had chosen "before the foundation of the world". So therefore, all sheep were chosen as sheep, from before the foundation of the world.

[Eph 1:4 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[JimmyTheLock]

The Israelites were saved out of Egypt in the sense that they were delivered out of Egypt.

God's warnings in Jude 1:5,6 stands, your opposing opinion does not.

the text says believed not/did not believe and NOT 'quit' believing.

They would have been destroyed or rejected long before coming out of Egypt if they were never believers in the first place as you suppose.

These verses speak of those that turned away and QUIT believing:

Those that Turned Away from the Lord

2 Timothy 4:3,4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine (teaching); but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

James 5:19,20
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know, that he which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

*By addressing this to “brethren” we know this is speaking to believers who turned from the truth and if they are converted back to the truth, the soul of the person that had fallen away is being saved from spiritual death which is separation from God.

2 Peter 2:1-3
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying (contradicting, Not agreeing with) the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness (idolatry) shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not.

Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (no self control, living after the flesh), and denying (contradicting, opposing Jesus’ teachings) the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (referring to false teachers and false brethren - see Matthew 13:24-30)

(Deny = Strong's G0720… to contradict, disavow, reject, deny, refuse - and Strong's G4483… the idea of pouring forth, to utter, speak of or say, command)

Jude 1:17-21
Remember the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
These are those who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
But you, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

("those who separate themselves" is not referring to sinners in the world who were never joined unto the Lord in the first place)

Acts 20:27-30
For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice and does not forsake His saints; They are PRESERVED FOREVER, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

Those that turn away from Him... are those that turn away from Him going back to sin have become wicked once again and will be cut off as they have sown to the flesh and have reaped corruption... they turned away and decided to forsake the Lord.

Humans are not born perfect but are conceived in sin. (Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12)

That's false on it's face! David's mother was living in sin when David was conceived, and Romans 5:12 says sin came UPON all men and all have sinned... not that men were all born sinners.

It also says righteousness came UPON all men in Romans 18 so you must think all men are now saved (universalism) You can't have it both ways which is why verse 18 is left out of your comments.

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life.

It's obvious here that you suffer from an acute form of Cherry Pickers Syndrome (CPS) where one only accepts a few happy verses that fits their preconceived ideas and ignore or explain away the rest of God's Word.

The Lord forms us in the womb (Jeremiah 1:5), so for all to have been born sinners... this mean you'd have to claim that GOD made all people to be sinners.

God's Word clearly teaches that children are not being held responsible for their father's sins (Deuteronomy 24:16) and the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him (Ezekiel 18:20-32)

God's Word actually says all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) so we are only held responsible for our own sin, not Adam's sin.

What Adam did caused sin and darkness to come UPON all men providing them with opportunity to sin.

What Jesus did caused righteousness to come UPON all men providing them with opportunity to become righteous. (Romans 18)

Titus 2:11,12 (biblical definition of God's Grace)
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Corinthians 5:21
For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Only those abiding IN CHRIST can be righteous... those that turn away from the Lord to go back to their sin... God did not forsake them, they turned away and just like we see in Jesus teaching on the prodical son the Father considered His son dead while he was turned away but alive again once he returned unto the Father.

 

[Cameron143]

God's warnings in Jude 1:5,6 stands, your opposing opinion does not.




They would have been destroyed or rejected long before coming out of Egypt if they were never believers in the first place as you suppose.

These verses speak of those that turned away and QUIT believing:

Those that Turned Away from the Lord

2 Timothy 4:3,4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine (teaching); but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

James 5:19,20
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know, that he which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

*By addressing this to “brethren” we know this is speaking to believers who turned from the truth and if they are converted back to the truth, the soul of the person that had fallen away is being saved from spiritual death which is separation from God.

2 Peter 2:1-3
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying (contradicting, Not agreeing with) the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness (idolatry) shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not.

Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (no self control, living after the flesh), and denying (contradicting, opposing Jesus’ teachings) the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (referring to false teachers and false brethren - see Matthew 13:24-30)

(Deny = Strong's G0720… to contradict, disavow, reject, deny, refuse - and Strong's G4483… the idea of pouring forth, to utter, speak of or say, command)

Jude 1:17-21
Remember the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
These are those who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
But you, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

("those who separate themselves" is not referring to sinners in the world who were never joined unto the Lord in the first place)

Acts 20:27-30
For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.




Those that turn away from Him... are those that turn away from Him going back to sin have become wicked once again and will be cut off as they have sown to the flesh and have reaped corruption... they turned away and decided to forsake the Lord.




That's false on it's face! David's mother was living in sin when David was conceived, and Romans 5:12 says sin came UPON all men and all have sinned... not that men were all born sinners.

It also says righteousness came UPON all men in Romans 18 so you must think all men are now saved (universalism) You can't have it both ways which is why verse 18 is left out of your comments.

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life.

It's obvious here that you suffer from an acute form of Cherry Pickers Syndrome (CPS) where one only accepts a few happy verses that fits their preconceived ideas and ignore or explain away the rest of God's Word.

The Lord forms us in the womb (Jeremiah 1:5), so for all to have been born sinners... this mean you'd have to claim that GOD made all people to be sinners.

God's Word clearly teaches that children are not being held responsible for their father's sins (Deuteronomy 24:16) and the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him (Ezekiel 18:20-32)

God's Word actually says all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) so we are only held responsible for our own sin, not Adam's sin.

What Adam did caused sin and darkness to come UPON all men providing them with opportunity to sin.

What Jesus did caused righteousness to come UPON all men providing them with opportunity to become righteous. (Romans 18)

Titus 2:11,12 (biblical definition of God's Grace)
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Corinthians 5:21
For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Only those abiding IN CHRIST can be righteous... those that turn away from the Lord to go back to their sin... God did not forsake them, they turned away and just like we see in Jesus teaching on the prodical son the Father considered His son dead while he was turned away but alive again once he returned unto the Father.

Only those IN CHRIST are righteous. Only those abiding IN CHRIST bear fruit. Otherwise, we would need salvation every day, and many times each day.
Instead, when we are saved, we are placed positionaly IN CHRIST. As we learn to walk in the Spirit, we abide.
Once we are placed, more accurately, INTO Christ, there is nothing that can separate us from the love of God.

 

[JimmyTheLock]

nothing that can separate us from the love of God.

God loved every person that went to hell.... yet they went to hell anyway because they refused to abide IN CHRIST and instead choose to abide in the devil.

As I have already posted, some turn away from the Lord and choose to follow doctrines of demons... when one does this, they are no longer "elect" and are no hell bound.

Unless they confess their sin and forsake their sin and come back to the Lord and abide in Him once again... like the prodigal son did.

 

[Cameron143]

God loved every person that went to hell.... yet they went to hell anyway because they refused to abide IN CHRIST and instead choose to abide in the devil.

As I have already posted, some turn away from the Lord and choose to follow doctrines of demons... when one does this, they are no longer "elect" and are no hell bound.

Unless they confess their sin and forsake their sin and come back to the Lord and abide in Him once again... like the prodigal son did.

Do you always abide in Christ? Do you need salvation many times each day?
Abiding in Christ is something we are to do. Being placed into Christ is something God does for us, and something only God can do.
In all times, there have been those who have attached themselves to God who later fell away. But there has never been one whom God has attached Himself to who has ever fallen out of Christ.

 

[romans113336]

God's warnings in Jude 1:5,6 stands, your opposing opinion does not.




They would have been destroyed or rejected long before coming out of Egypt if they were never believers in the first place as you suppose.

These verses speak of those that turned away and QUIT believing:

Those that Turned Away from the Lord

2 Timothy 4:3,4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine (teaching); but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

James 5:19,20
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know, that he which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

*By addressing this to “brethren” we know this is speaking to believers who turned from the truth and if they are converted back to the truth, the soul of the person that had fallen away is being saved from spiritual death which is separation from God.

2 Peter 2:1-3
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying (contradicting, Not agreeing with) the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness (idolatry) shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not.

Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (no self control, living after the flesh), and denying (contradicting, opposing Jesus’ teachings) the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (referring to false teachers and false brethren - see Matthew 13:24-30)

(Deny = Strong's G0720… to contradict, disavow, reject, deny, refuse - and Strong's G4483… the idea of pouring forth, to utter, speak of or say, command)

Jude 1:17-21
Remember the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
These are those who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
But you, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

("those who separate themselves" is not referring to sinners in the world who were never joined unto the Lord in the first place)

Acts 20:27-30
For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.




Those that turn away from Him... are those that turn away from Him going back to sin have become wicked once again and will be cut off as they have sown to the flesh and have reaped corruption... they turned away and decided to forsake the Lord.




That's false on it's face! David's mother was living in sin when David was conceived, and Romans 5:12 says sin came UPON all men and all have sinned... not that men were all born sinners.

It also says righteousness came UPON all men in Romans 18 so you must think all men are now saved (universalism) You can't have it both ways which is why verse 18 is left out of your comments.

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life.

It's obvious here that you suffer from an acute form of Cherry Pickers Syndrome (CPS) where one only accepts a few happy verses that fits their preconceived ideas and ignore or explain away the rest of God's Word.

The Lord forms us in the womb (Jeremiah 1:5), so for all to have been born sinners... this mean you'd have to claim that GOD made all people to be sinners.

God's Word clearly teaches that children are not being held responsible for their father's sins (Deuteronomy 24:16) and the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him (Ezekiel 18:20-32)

God's Word actually says all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) so we are only held responsible for our own sin, not Adam's sin.

What Adam did caused sin and darkness to come UPON all men providing them with opportunity to sin.

What Jesus did caused righteousness to come UPON all men providing them with opportunity to become righteous. (Romans 18)

Titus 2:11,12 (biblical definition of God's Grace)
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Corinthians 5:21
For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Only those abiding IN CHRIST can be righteous... those that turn away from the Lord to go back to their sin... God did not forsake them, they turned away and just like we see in Jesus teaching on the prodical son the Father considered His son dead while he was turned away but alive again once he returned unto the Father.

Yup, Ro 11:17-23.

 

[mailmandan]

Only those IN CHRIST are righteous. Only those abiding IN CHRIST bear fruit. Otherwise, we would need salvation every day, and many times each day.
Instead, when we are saved, we are placed positionaly IN CHRIST. As we learn to walk in the Spirit, we abide.
Once we are placed, more accurately, INTO Christ, there is nothing that can separate us from the love of God.

The Greek word for “abide” is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. This is not something that only elite saints do, but all genuine saints.

1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

 

[romans113336]

The Greek word for “abide” is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. This is not something that only elite saints do, but all genuine saints.

1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

Yes, and if they stop confessing Christ, they are "cut off"

Romans 17
17Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly notg spare you either.
22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

1 Corinthians 15
1Now I would remind you, brothers,a of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

Galatians 1
6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Galatians 3
1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Galatians 5
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace... 7You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you.

1 John 2
28Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.

So, we see that people can fall away from faith and be cut off.

 

[romans113336]

Only those IN CHRIST are righteous. Only those abiding IN CHRIST bear fruit. Otherwise, we would need salvation every day, and many times each day.
Instead, when we are saved, we are placed positionaly IN CHRIST. As we learn to walk in the Spirit, we abide.
Once we are placed, more accurately, INTO Christ, there is nothing that can separate us from the love of God.

Being in Christ is not a "fixed" reality; it's conditional upon obeying His commands--"Believe in the Name of God's Son and love one another". We know that people can and have broken this command after obeying it.


Romans 17
17Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly notg spare you either.
22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

1 Corinthians 15
1Now I would remind you, brothers,a of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

Galatians 1
6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Galatians 3
1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Galatians 5
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace... 7You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you.

1 John 2
28Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.

So, we see that people can fall away from faith and be cut off.

 

[NightTwister]

God loved every person that went to hell....

Scripture says otherwise. "As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” - Romans 9:13 ESV

 

[JimmyTheLock]

In all times, there have been those who have attached themselves to God who later fell away. But there has never been one whom God has attached Himself to who has ever fallen out of Christ.

More buffoonery from John Calvin and his followers!

God is NO respecter of persons... He does not elect some and then reject others as you suppose... which is false doctrine from that UN-repentant (according to him) murderer John Calvin

Do you always abide in Christ?

Yes. I do not knowingly or willing commit sin or do sinful things.

It should be a rare occurrence for Christians to sin and IF they did it's not something that knew was sinful and they decided to do it anyway.

Scripture says otherwise. "As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” - Romans 9:13 ESV

It's very obvious from God's Word that He does not want any to perish and out of love has provided opportunity for ALL to be saved (Limited Atonement is a lie!)

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believe in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Esau taught false doctrine so... that's why he was hated.

 

[romans113336]

More buffoonery from John Calvin and his followers!

God is NO respecter of persons... He does not elect some and then reject others as you suppose... which is false doctrine from that UN-repentant (according to him) murderer John Calvin

I was just talking about this topic on my thread.

Romans 11:7 says "the elect obtained, and the rest [non-elect] were hardened"--and, yet, Paul is seeking their salvation, and says they can be grafted back in if they do not remain in unbelief, AND that the branches that were grafted in through faith can be cut off for unbelief (Ro 11:17-23)! Clearly, then, "elect" doesn't mean what they think it means!

 

[Cameron143]

More buffoonery from John Calvin and his followers!

God is NO respecter of persons... He does not elect some and then reject others as you suppose... which is false doctrine from that UN-repentant (according to him) murderer John Calvin





Yes. I do not knowingly or willing commit sin or do sinful things.

It should be a rare occurrence for Christians to sin and IF they did it's not something that knew was sinful and they decided to do it anyway.




It's very obvious from God's Word that He does not want any to perish and out of love has provided opportunity for ALL to be saved (Limited Atonement is a lie!)

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believe in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Esau taught false doctrine so... that's why he was hated.

Who's Calvin?
Do you believe the way you responded was loving? Could you have done better? Did you esteem me better than yourself before you answered?

 

[JimmyTheLock]

Clearly, then, "elect" doesn't mean what they think it means!

No, it does not.

Once someone turns away from the Lord... they cease being one of the elects.

Not sure why the OSAS peoples have a problem with not turning away from the Lord... I guess they like to keep the door open to do a little sin on the weekends and get all freakly deaky... just don't let the pastor find out!

 

[NightTwister]

Esau taught false doctrine so... that's why he was hated.

That's not what scripture says. You just like to make stuff up as you go along.

 

[JimmyTheLock]

That's not what scripture says. You just like to make stuff up as you go along.

So your claim is he was in right standing with the Lord.... and one day the Lord just decided... "meh, I jhust hate that guy... for no reason in particular"

 

[NightTwister]

So your claim is he was in right standing with the Lord.... and one day the Lord just decided... "meh, I jhust hate that guy... for no reason in particular"

For someone who "never sins" (misrepresenting scripture in this case), you seem to do it often.

 

[romans113336]

No, it does not.

Once someone turns away from the Lord... they cease being one of the elects.

Yes.
There are different elections, but, yeah, if we're talking about the election of grace, yes, if they fall into unbelief they're cut off.

Not sure why the OSAS peoples have a problem with not turning away from the Lord... I guess they like to keep the door open to do a little sin on the weekends and get all freakly deaky... just don't let the pastor find out!

Hold on--that may be true of some of many of the unserious OSAS Christians, but I haven't found it to be the case with most of the serious Christians! John Piper, who is OSAS, says he received a grace from God to not even be attracted to other women than his wife after having married her! That's powerful grace--and I believe it, because I've experienced similar (though not on the same level)--and coming from an OSAS Chritian!