I'm sure you're not slow. It's hard to convey what we're thinking, put it into words and then someone read them and know exactly what was intended. I don't know how many times I've posted something and what they said I said was not what I meant to say.
Thanks, and yes, turbosixx, I know and understand what you're saying - sometimes it does feel like I'm trying to drive a car through a rear-view mirror - I suppose an inherent limitation of the written medium.
Now before you proceed, I want to state we are not saved BY our works. There are no amount of works a man can do to earn his salvation. We are saved by the grace of God and it is a gift. I suggest to you those who receive the gift are those whose faith is made complete by their works. For example Noah, God warned him of pending destruction and gave him a way of salvation. Noah believed God and built the ark saving himself and his family. The bible tells us, faith without works is dead. And this You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone
Okay, let me ask you this: if it is a gift as you say, and with which I completely agree, then as a true gift, why would it need to have works or faith for it to be completed by us to be received? Were that needed, wouldn't that make it not a gift but something else? Have you considered that a gift - and a true gift should necessitate nothing more than it is one - and given that faith and works are its requirements - that maybe the giver of the gift had also already considered, addressed, and satisfied those aspects too - they, therefore, are of the gift?
I agree that faith and works are requirements.... but.... requirements in its creation in order that it should be made as a gift, but not for the receiving of it. Consequently, both the faith and works had to be, and were, included in it by its giver, Christ. Consider also that to satisfy God, both had to be absolutely perfect, otherwise, we would be placing before God the imperfect to try to purchase and receive the perfect, which would be meaningless or much worse - an insult to God in His eyes. But were it possible that our faith and works perfect in God's eyes, then we would have no need for a Saviour because we could do it all ourselves, which, of course, we cannot.
The "faith without works is dead" pertains to Christ's faith to and His works not ours. Christ is the man portrayed in Jas 2:18 - it is not just a generic man representing everyone. In other words, if we are going to justify ourselves for salvation by our faith, it had better be a faith perfected by our works, which only Christ's faith was, not the haphazard and sinful faith and works of unsaved man. Instead, Christ's perfect faith is reckoned to us upon our becoming born-again. When the Bible mentions someone's faith, that faith originated from Christ's faith and was reckoned to them.
Based upon my understanding (at least), that is precisely what we are told in the Bible. Here are just three verses (of many) which informs of that. Notice in Rom 1:17 the "faith to faith"; that is, that faith originates from and within Christ, and is given to those He saves and justifies, the result of which is life eternal. In Phl 3:9, notice that Paul desired the faith and the righteousness of the faith, of Christ, and rejected his own faith and its righteousness. Notice also that in 2 Ti 1:9, the value of our works for salvation in any sense are worthless in God's eyes. Only through Christ, according to God's purpose alone, are we saved - nothing else counts nor is to be valued or pursued by us.
[Rom 1:17 KJV] 17 For therein is the
righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written,
The just shall live by faith.
[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but
that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
[2Ti 1:9 KJV] 9 Who hath
saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but
according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
So, when the Bible mentions that a person is justified by faith and/or works, it is justification fully and completely achieved by Christ; that is, Christ's faith has within it, righteousness and works. Otherwise, of ourselves, how could we know when and if we had supplied sufficient faith and works to receive salvation? They would be requirements without knowable criteria to satisfy them. That is why Christ is the Saviour and man not - because His faith and righteousness were perfect.
Jesus's sacrifice is totally sufficient to forgive sins, past, present and future. My point is becoming a Christian does not mean we can't give up our salvation by turning away from God. I disagree with you and probably the root of it is what you say here. and remain so, by what Christ alone did, not by what they may do or not do
Not by what they may do or not do. I would say that is false. Jesus gives us a preview of the judgement scene in Matthew 25. Based on the context and what Jesus says, what determined their eternal fate? What Christ did alone or what they did or did not due?
Well, if we could give up our salvation, then by any assessment, it could not have been eternal. But we have been given unconditional conformation by God that it is eternal.
It is impossible for us as sinful men who have the mind of natural man, to comprehend and accept the extent and depth of the graciousness, mercy, and love that God given freely to those whom He has so chosen for it- one must ponder it a lot to get even a slight sense of it - man by nature just cannot grasp those kinds of eternal things. However, nevertheless, salvation is God's to give to those whom He had so chosen for it based solely upon His divine prerogative and good pleasure.
The "lambs" of Matthew 25 were made so by Christ. Man cannot make of himself a lamb. Notice below, that they who Christ sent out had already become saved - the unsaved cannot be lambs because they neither understand nor believe the gospel. The same with feeding the hungry (which is spiritual not physical hunger). What I think you miss is that spiritual good works can only come from salvation, they cannot give or lead anyone to salvation - salvation must come first with good works from it.
[Luk 10:3 KJV] 3 Go your ways: behold,
I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
If you haven't already done so, I would suggest you read Jimbone's posts 6927 and 6934. He explained it much better than I.
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