There will be no Rapture!!!

[ewq1938]

There will be tribulation saints who did not take the mark of the beast. These people could not go in the pre-trib rapture because they were not saved. They became tribulation saints by rejecting the mark which means they accepted Jesus that is why they are called tribulation saints.

"tribulation saints" does not appear in the bible. They are just called saints and they entered the tribulation that way. Example, the two witnesses aren't trib converts. They are Christians anointed with the task of Christ's testimony during the trib. The bible places the rapture as after the trib not before it.

Here is the only passage about The Rapture that actually uses the Greek word that means a rapture, Harpazo:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

Here we see the second coming mentioned 3 times, then the resurrection and then the rapture. This proves the rapture is connected to the second coming. All that needs to be proven is when the second coming happens to know when the rapture happens.


Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


The second coming happens AFTER the GT is over, so the rapture happens post-Trib. Circumventing these two passages is to ignore the scriptural evidence of WHEN the rapture is going to happen.

 

[selahsays]

Hello Gideon300,
Mass death does not equal the tribulation, and although these people may feel they
we’re in the great tribulation, we know they were not.
Where was the NWO during the deaths of these people? These people were not killed for refusing the mark of the beast… more importantly, the antichrist is coming to convert you, he comes in on the wings of an eagle… Remember when they say peace, peace…..

Yes, and many who call themselves Christian will be spiritually deceived and ultimately, they will worship the AC because they truly believe he is Jesus.

 

[ewq1938]

Here's an issue with pre-trib. The bible speaks of false Christs and even Antichrist's plus a singular mention of Antichrist is used by John. That's the one we think of ruling during the Great Tribulation. As a false Christ it is commonly believed he will imitate Christ and the things Christ will do. Revelation 13 mentions miracles being used to deceive people. Paul also said the man of sin would do the same (lying wonders). These miracles to deceive as not described so we have to guess. Well, it isn't much of a stretch to think a false Christ might produce a false rapture and even a false resurrection. The bible says our gathering to Christ will not happen until two things happen: the Apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin (the Antichrist). That means no rapture before the Great Tribulation starts. It endangers believers in the pre-trib doctrine because they could be deceived by the false Christ and any possible false rapture.

If you were the devil/ac etc and you wanted to deceive Christians, wouldn't you fake a second coming, resurrection and rapture and give them a "heavenly" experience of those things? It would be very hard to reject it all if you are pre-trib. Post-tribbers are expecting these deceiving miracles and that false Christ. Pre-tribbers aren't.

Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.


Parlor tricks wouldn't be impressive enough to deceive people so these deceiving miracles will be huge things. I think making people feel immortal and making them feel like they had been raptured to heaven is not an outrageous idea. It's therefore extremely dangerous to believe that Jesus will just come down at any moment and rapture people. It goes against scripture and places them directly in the path of Apostasy. The most ironic and sad part of that is that most pre-tribbers believe the Apostasy (Apostasia in Greek) is the rapture rather than what it actually is, a falling away or defection from the truth, from Christ and Christianity.

When I post against pre-trib, I am hoping to save people from the possible mistake of an eternity. It's wiser to believe a post-trib rapture. It's scary but Christians have been persecuted and murdered throughout Christian history and that will happen in an even worse way during the great Tribulation. No one can "miss" the rapture anyways. God knows who is meant to be raptured. Your belief in when it happens doesn't matter to God nor affects who God will have raptured.

 

[selahsays]

Satan comes at the 6th trump.
Jesus Christ comes at the 7th trump.

Don’t be deceived.

And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

- Mark 13:5-6 (KJV)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The bible says our gathering to Christ will not happen until

No it doesn't say that.

It's referring back to verse 2 ("the DAY of the Lord"), which Paul in his first letter had already stated arrives "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth pang" that comes upon a woman (that's well-prior to His Second Coming to the earth).



You are doing the same thing that that [person] in that old video does (and many do) by incorrectly EQUATING "rapture"--verse 1's Subject--with "the day of the Lord"--the Subject of the false claim in v.2 (purporting that it "is present / already here").

They are NOT the same thing.

"Our Rapture" is vertical; "the day of the Lord" is horizontal [that is, on earth... over some time].

They are completely distinct things, and even just the GRAMMAR of verses 1 and 2 alone (without even HAVING to go further) proves this.
You are mistakenly equating the two.








[further down in the text, meaning, from vv.3b-8, Paul 3x repeats the proper SEQUENCE between these two distinct things]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No one can "miss" the rapture anyways. God knows who is meant to be raptured. Your belief in when it happens doesn't matter to God nor affects who God will have raptured.

Agreed!

Glad we can agree on this particular point. Amen! = )








It *can* affect our JOY (and eagerness), however = ) [and in THAT sense, it matters to God ]





[I do notice, however, that IN SOME CASES, people's viewpoint of "rapture-timing" is connected to (informed by) their incorrect views of "salvation truths"(<--the thing that vitally matters)]

 

[cv5]

No it doesn't say that.

It's referring back to verse 2 ("the DAY of the Lord"), which Paul in his first letter had already stated arrives "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth pang" that comes upon a woman (that's well-prior to His Second Coming to the earth).

@ewq1938 (and @presidente ) has been floundering on those same verses (and frankly all rapture verses) and making the SAME MISTAKES.....for years. Literally years. If not decades.

2Ti 3:7
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The post-tribbers evidently never learn and are forever stuck in the same rut. It must be a nightmare to be "possessed" with that state of mind.

On the other hand, pre-tribber minds shine like lights in the firmament!

Dan 12:3
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

To all of the audience out there......is this not so? Have not the Pre-tribbers prevailed?

 

[cv5]

Thanks for admitting that Revelation 3:10 is NOT proof of the pre tribulation rapture and that pretrib is a false doctrine not supported by scripture.

https://christianchat.com/threads/there-will-be-no-rapture.212356/post-5146804

"Wrong again buddy. Spatially OUT OF the PLACE-TIME-CAUSE of the tribulation, the location being the abode of the "earth dwellers" THE PLANET EARTH.

We are long gone, seen in heaven in Rev ch 4 & 5 as the 24 Elders.

Rev 3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from G1537 the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

ἐκ ek, ek

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. out of, from, by, away from

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
ἐκ ek, ek; a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote):—"

 

[Evmur]

Incorrect.

Are you under the dispensation of the law?

 

[selahsays]

@ewq1938 (and @presidente ) has been floundering on those same verses (and frankly all rapture verses) and making the SAME MISTAKES.....for years. Literally years. If not decades.

2Ti 3:7
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The post-tribbers evidently never learn and are forever stuck in the same rut. It must be a nightmare to be "possessed" with that state of mind.

On the other hand, pre-tribber minds shine like lights in the firmament!

Dan 12:3
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

To all of the audience out there......is this not so? Have not the Pre-tribbers prevailed?

Nahhh

 

[cv5]

Nahhh View attachment 255665

Post tribber commentary (or the lack thereof, as in this case) makes winning for the pre-tribbers so soooooo easy.

 

[PennEd]

Think about this:

LOT:
Lot "SAW" the people of Sodom go into a frenzy trying to Rape/have Same Sex with the Angels, then LOT SAW, those people GO BLIND...BEFORE He was instructed to leave. But he clearly HEARD their screams, the destruction, the damage by the falling sulfur, etc.

So LOT SAW the LAST SIN and the Beginning of Destruction:


NOAH:
Noah "SAW" the people DENY GOD's Warning and Invitation to enter the Ark. And then NOAH SAW the Rain fall, the people go into a frenzy begging to enter the Ark and screaming for their lives.

So NOAH SAW the LAST SIN and the Beginning of Destruction:


...
and now, Jesus says, the Tribulation will be much like LOT and NOAH in how people were living and then comes "sudden" DESTRUCTION.

If we follow LOT and NOAH, we will see the LAST SIN [thinking the AC/Beast is God and worship it as God] or [Take the MARK] and then if we're Removed, it will be right before DESTRUCTION Coming. But this puts us well into the 2nd Half of Tribulation and like LOT and NOAH out of WRATH's Literal HARM.

But the similitude in Noah’s case was that Enoch was raptured before the wrath. Noah would represent those that were saved THROUGH the wrath.

As I stated earlier, the rapture cannot happen once the AC seat’s himself in the Temple, proclaiming himself to be god.

Because we would then KNOW the day the Lord returns because it will be exactly 3.5 years from that date. And Jesus said no one knows the day.

 

[PennEd]

Have to confess, I am more pre-trib than ever. If that is even possible.
I see nothing whatsoever to convince me otherwise. Not even a little bit, no doubt whatsoever that the pre-trib rapture is exactly that which the Word intentionally teaches and declares.

Well in a technical sense I am too. The question then becomes when does the Great Tribulation start.

I submit Gods wrath, which I believe is the tribulation spoken of, doesn’t start until the last 3.5 years of the seven.

We may not know when the start of the 7 kicks off.

The first 3.5 years, the AC is going to seem like the greatest rock star the world has ever seen. And things are going to be great for the lost.

 

[MichaelZ]

I think we can all agree that things are going to get tougher for Christians everywhere. Also we need to be ready to meet God when our time is up here in this world is up.

 

[BeeBlessed]

Post tribber commentary (or the lack thereof, as in this case) makes winning for the pre-tribbers so soooooo easy.

@selahsays has already documented her point of view (the Biblical one) many times on this and other threads, and still you have no ears to hear.

 

[NightTwister]

Are you under the dispensation of the law?

I'm not a dispensationalist. Your attempt to play with word meanings won't work here.

 

[NightTwister]

To all of the audience out there......is this not so? Have not the Pre-tribbers prevailed?

No.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Day can mean a day or a time period. It depends on the context. There is no reason to think that there is a rapture at the beginning of a 'day' that lasts seven years and read that into II Thessalonians 1.

1) "our Rapture" is not "at the beginning" of it [seal #1 is its "beginning"], but rather our rapture takes place prior to it [fairly lock-step, however];

2) "the Day of the Lord" does not merely last for SEVEN YEARS, because it goes on to INCLUDE the entire earthly Millennial Kingdom [1000 yrs], also--so a VERY LENGTHY duration of time;

3) Paul says when its arrival is (1Th5:1-3)... as I'd pointed out





[my advice to the readers, is to study out all passages regarding "the day of the Lord," and its associated phrase "IN THAT DAY" when that phase is used in close proximity / same context as the other phrase]

 

[cv5]

1) "our Rapture" is not "at the beginning" of it [seal #1 is its "beginning"], but rather our rapture takes place prior to it [fairly lock-step, however];

2) "the Day of the Lord" does not merely last for SEVEN YEARS, because it goes on to INCLUDE the entire earthly Millennial Kingdom [1000 yrs], also--so a VERY LENGTHY duration of time;

3) Paul says when its arrival is (1Th5:1-3)... as I'd pointed out

Aaannndd the post-tribber fumbles the pass. Again.
They are not gonna win any games like that....

 

[cv5]

There is no reason to think that there is a rapture at the beginning of a 'day' that lasts seven years and read that into II Thessalonians 1.

I have been trying to tell you bro (and warn others at the same time!)
.....you just don't get it. Never have.

Just to clarify: the rapture is in no way within the time-constraints of the DOTL.

On the contrary, we are SNATCHED/HARPAZOed OUT of the earth/planet/world BEFORE the DOTL begins.
And according to Scripture, our rapture is an absolute requirement BEFORE the DOTL can commence.

Therefore the "PLACE-TIME-CAUSE" of the DOTL cannot and does not affect/impact us in any way.
We are heavenly bystanders, enjoying our 7 year honeymoon with the Lord.