Are the trumpets and vials chronological in Revelation?
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It is not relevant per se because its a metaphor, Jesus is merely demonstrating that God's Wrath will only fall once He deems it time, God Wrath is SEALED UP until his Wrath is filled up. Israel were not given Canaan land right off because their sins had not yet come full, but over 400 years later their sins had come full and thus the land spew them out because of their sins. Its enough to know that the "7th Seal" is over in Rev. 8 where the Trumps are at, and to understand the reason Rev. 7 is in between Rev. 6 and Rev. 8 is because the 144,000 (Israel who repent, just like he Woman in Rev. 12) need to be saved, sealed and protected before God's Wrath falls.
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I can not tag the one you got all the funny snow dots around, so I will jut say, Jesus is God the Redeemer, but he is not God the Father, and he is not God the Holy Spirit.
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The Church Departs in 2 Thess. 2:3, in a Pre Trib Rapture.
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I can not tag the one you got all the funny snow dots around, so I will jut say, Jesus is God the Redeemer, but he is not God the Father, and he is not God the Holy Spirit.
.................................................................................................
The Church Departs in 2 Thess. 2:3, in a Pre Trib Rapture.
The 'trumpets' are chronological and occur in sequence.
The 'vials' are chronological and occur in sequence.
The 'trumpets' all occur before the 'vials' begin.
In between is the Second Coming of Christ.
The 'vials' are the 'Wrath of God'.
The 'trumpets' are not.
The 'events' of the 'seals' are chronological in their 'beginnings' only - there is overlap within the seals and there is overlap with the 'trumpets' (definitely) and the 'vials' (possibly).
The sixth seal is an 'overview' of sorts - and, overlaps the 'trumpets' (definitely) and the 'vials' (possibly).
Revelation 6:
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Revelation 16:
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Two ways to look at it:
1) The two verses are talking about the same event. As such, the sixth seal - as an 'overview' of events - overlaps the 'vials'.
2) The two verses are talking about different events. As such, being 'moved out of their places' is technically different than 'fled away'/'not found'.
Revelation 10:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Revelation 11:
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
These verses are 'at the door' references to the Second Coming of Christ - which 'coincides' with the seventh trumpet.
Please see:
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html
The 'vials' are chronological and occur in sequence.
The 'trumpets' all occur before the 'vials' begin.
In between is the Second Coming of Christ.
The 'vials' are the 'Wrath of God'.
The 'trumpets' are not.
The 'events' of the 'seals' are chronological in their 'beginnings' only - there is overlap within the seals and there is overlap with the 'trumpets' (definitely) and the 'vials' (possibly).
The sixth seal is an 'overview' of sorts - and, overlaps the 'trumpets' (definitely) and the 'vials' (possibly).
Revelation 6:
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Revelation 16:
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Two ways to look at it:
1) The two verses are talking about the same event. As such, the sixth seal - as an 'overview' of events - overlaps the 'vials'.
2) The two verses are talking about different events. As such, being 'moved out of their places' is technically different than 'fled away'/'not found'.
Revelation 10:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Revelation 11:
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
These verses are 'at the door' references to the Second Coming of Christ - which 'coincides' with the seventh trumpet.
Please see:
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html
The 'events' of the 'seals' take place over a long period of time. (~2000 years)
The 'events' of the 'trumpets' take place over a shorter but still lengthy period of time. (somewhere between 5 months and 3.5 years)
The 'events' of the 'vials' take place over a very short period of time. (hours to days - no more than a week)
(The time spans are my personal 'estimates'.)
The 'events' of the 'trumpets' take place over a shorter but still lengthy period of time. (somewhere between 5 months and 3.5 years)
The 'events' of the 'vials' take place over a very short period of time. (hours to days - no more than a week)
(The time spans are my personal 'estimates'.)
No, the Seals are all opened after the Church Age (Rev. 2 an d 3) The Seals DO NOTHING, they are Jesus prophesying what the 7 Trumpet Judgments will bring, all wrath emits from the 7 Trumps, if you read Revelation 8:13 a few times this would probably click. The last three woes are the three Trumps yet to sound. So Trump #5 is the 1st Woe, Trump #6 is the 2nd Woe and Trump #7 is the 3rd Woe. In Rev. 11 which is a parenthetical chapter about the Two-witnesses we see the 2nd Woe spoken about, but of course the real time events are in Rev. 9. Likewise we see in Rev. 11 it states the 3rd Woe comes quickly, then we see the 7th Trump brings victory, but like the 2nd Woe we get no details. The DETAILS are given over in Rev. 16, the 7th Trump brings the 3rd Woe which is all 7 Vials combined, they FINISH OFF God's Wrath because the 7 Trumps are God's Wrath, that is why the 7 Thunders sounding changes everything in Rev. 10. So, Jesus foretells of the 42 month rule of the Anti-Christ as he opens the first 5 Seals (which are just metaphors anyway, showing God has all Wrath SEALED UP until He say it is Judgment time) and thus Jesus is demonstrating what the Beasts 42 month reign of terror will bring.
1.) He goes forth conquering
2.) He takes away the peace/brings war
3.) His wars an d edicts bring Famine
4.) His rule ill bring Death, Sickness and the Grave (Hades)
5.) He will Martyr the Gentiles who convert, he can not get at the Jews who convert
Now the 6th Seal represents God's soon to come Wrath, both parallel the same 42 months however.
6.) God's Wrath will fall with the Apophis asteroid IMHO (Rev. 8 Mountain cast into the sea). This will bring the DARKNESS shown in Trumpet #4 because of all the Fires in Trumpet #1. You see, the 6th Seal is just as Prophetic in nature as Joel 2:31, they FORECAST the same thing, one 2500 years ago, the other 2000 years ago.
The 7th Seal is over in Rev. 8 for a reason, the Judgments will not come until the 7th Seal has been loosed or taken off. Just like 7 locks on a closet door leaves it STILL LOCKED until all 7 are off, only having taken 6 off avails nothing, the closet is still locked.
The Trumps last 3.5 years.
The Vials IMHO, last 75 days because the Two-witnesses die at the end of the 2nd Woe and they show up 1335 days before the 2nd coming ends all of these wonders, or 75 days before the Anti-Christ becomes The Beast at the 1260 middle of the week event. That is the ONLY REASON God allows the Two-witnesses to die, so we can juxtapose their 1260 day timeline against the Beasts 1260 day timeline, they have Glorious Bodies, there is no other reason fir them to die, except so we can see the TIMELINES and use them as a sort of "North Star Navigational System".
Close, the 7 Vials come forth from the 7th Trump.
Nope, the 2nd Coming happens at Rev. 16:19, the 7th Vial. Rev. 11 (7th Trump) Rev. 14:17-20 (Wine-press of God's Wrath on the wicked) Rev. 16:19 same WINE-PRESS on Babylon the Great (Whole World) and Rev. 19 Armageddon are all four the EXACT SAME EVENTS !!
The 7 Vials FINISH OFF God's Wrath, the 7 Trumps are the complete Wrath. You mistake is in the reading.
Rev. 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
In those 7 LAST PLAGUES God's Wrath comes full, that is not saying the 7 Vials are ALL of God's Wrath, it just fills up the bowl, because these emit from Trump #7.
Makes no sense, a Mountain/Asteroid hits yet not NOT God's Wrath, all because you misread, IMHO, what FILLS UP is really saying.
The Seals are PROPHETIC in Nature. They do nothing, just like Joel 2:31 actually only FORETELLS of the coming Trumpet Judgments as seen in Rev. 8.
1.) He goes forth conquering
2.) He takes away the peace/brings war
3.) His wars an d edicts bring Famine
4.) His rule ill bring Death, Sickness and the Grave (Hades)
5.) He will Martyr the Gentiles who convert, he can not get at the Jews who convert
Now the 6th Seal represents God's soon to come Wrath, both parallel the same 42 months however.
6.) God's Wrath will fall with the Apophis asteroid IMHO (Rev. 8 Mountain cast into the sea). This will bring the DARKNESS shown in Trumpet #4 because of all the Fires in Trumpet #1. You see, the 6th Seal is just as Prophetic in nature as Joel 2:31, they FORECAST the same thing, one 2500 years ago, the other 2000 years ago.
The 7th Seal is over in Rev. 8 for a reason, the Judgments will not come until the 7th Seal has been loosed or taken off. Just like 7 locks on a closet door leaves it STILL LOCKED until all 7 are off, only having taken 6 off avails nothing, the closet is still locked.
The Trumps last 3.5 years.
The Vials IMHO, last 75 days because the Two-witnesses die at the end of the 2nd Woe and they show up 1335 days before the 2nd coming ends all of these wonders, or 75 days before the Anti-Christ becomes The Beast at the 1260 middle of the week event. That is the ONLY REASON God allows the Two-witnesses to die, so we can juxtapose their 1260 day timeline against the Beasts 1260 day timeline, they have Glorious Bodies, there is no other reason fir them to die, except so we can see the TIMELINES and use them as a sort of "North Star Navigational System".
Close, the 7 Vials come forth from the 7th Trump.
Nope, the 2nd Coming happens at Rev. 16:19, the 7th Vial. Rev. 11 (7th Trump) Rev. 14:17-20 (Wine-press of God's Wrath on the wicked) Rev. 16:19 same WINE-PRESS on Babylon the Great (Whole World) and Rev. 19 Armageddon are all four the EXACT SAME EVENTS !!
The 7 Vials FINISH OFF God's Wrath, the 7 Trumps are the complete Wrath. You mistake is in the reading.
Rev. 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
In those 7 LAST PLAGUES God's Wrath comes full, that is not saying the 7 Vials are ALL of God's Wrath, it just fills up the bowl, because these emit from Trump #7.
Makes no sense, a Mountain/Asteroid hits yet not NOT God's Wrath, all because you misread, IMHO, what FILLS UP is really saying.
The Seals are PROPHETIC in Nature. They do nothing, just like Joel 2:31 actually only FORETELLS of the coming Trumpet Judgments as seen in Rev. 8.
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I'm not sure what the order is exactly but I believe the first seal opened (not the first seal or seal number 1) speaks of the AC and that isn't the first chronological thing to happen. The 6ths eal speaks of the second coming but that also does not happen 6th chronologically. A clue is in the first verse, where it says he opened "one of the seals" but doesn't say it was seal number 1. So, I believe they were not opened in chronological order.
@Rondonmon - we will just have to "agree to disagree agreeably" - there is just too much difference in what we believe on this topic. I simply do not want to take the time to try to "correct" what I see is the error in your reading of scripture.
However - for 'edification' and 'insight' - I will make mention of the fact that I define 'events' in 'event' terms. And, my End Times Scenario studies have resulted in the order illustrated in the chart on this web page:
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html
All 'events' have 'start' and 'end' points in time. I "order" the 'events' based on these 'start' and 'end' points:
~ What occurs before what?
~ What occurs after what?
~ What occurs at the same time as what?
The 'Seals', 'Trumpets', and 'Vials' all represent 'judgment' (three different types); however, they do not all represent the 'Wrath of God'.
The 'Seals', 'Trumpets', and 'Vials' also represent different [sets of] 'events' - they are not all referring to the same 'events'.
However - for 'edification' and 'insight' - I will make mention of the fact that I define 'events' in 'event' terms. And, my End Times Scenario studies have resulted in the order illustrated in the chart on this web page:
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html
All 'events' have 'start' and 'end' points in time. I "order" the 'events' based on these 'start' and 'end' points:
~ What occurs before what?
~ What occurs after what?
~ What occurs at the same time as what?
The 'Seals', 'Trumpets', and 'Vials' all represent 'judgment' (three different types); however, they do not all represent the 'Wrath of God'.
The 'Seals', 'Trumpets', and 'Vials' also represent different [sets of] 'events' - they are not all referring to the same 'events'.
I know of no one who does not define the 'order' of the seals in terms of the order Jesus "opens" them.
Seal #1 is defined as the first seal opened.
Seal #2 is defined as the second seal opened.
Seal #3 is defined as the third seal opened.
Seal #4 is defined as the fourth seal opened.
Seal #5 is defined as the fifth seal opened.
Seal #6 is defined as the sixth seal opened.
Seal #7 is defined as the seventh seal opened.
It is needless and useless to define it any other way.
Seal #1 is defined as the first seal opened.
Seal #2 is defined as the second seal opened.
Seal #3 is defined as the third seal opened.
Seal #4 is defined as the fourth seal opened.
Seal #5 is defined as the fifth seal opened.
Seal #6 is defined as the sixth seal opened.
Seal #7 is defined as the seventh seal opened.
It is needless and useless to define it any other way.
"Belief" has nothing to do with it at all, facts are facts. The problem with younger guys like you is you have tunnel vision, if you heard it or believed it already you lack the ability to override that dis-info when presented with the factoids. For instance it should be common sense that a letter/message 2000 years ago with a Sealed Signet Wax Seal had NOT BEEN OPENED, that was the whole meaning, so since 7 is the number of Divine Completion, it ought to be easy to put it together, but lo, you already think there are 21 Judgments so you can't override that wrong assumption.
ALL SEVEN (7) MUST BE LOOSED BEFORE JUDGMENTS CAN FALL
The Trumpet Judgments will not be read aloud (brought to pass) until ALL SEVEN WAX SEALS are taken off, its not hard at all to understand if one leaves their misconceptions at the door. So, in Rev. 10, when it says the Seven Thunders end time as we know it you know why you can't grasp that is the 7 Trumpet Judgments? Because the 7 Trumpet Judgments are the complete Judgments, there are no Seal Judgments. So how do we get Judgments in Revelation, what starts the DOTL ? The Asteroid Impact starts it all, that happens in Rev. 8, who flees Judea ? Israel )the 144,000 is a CODE just like the Woman, God doesn't not chose a perfect number, 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 is simply Fulness x Completeness. So, now without tat other BLOCK we can see Rev. 7 is the Jews fleeing Judea JUST BEFORE God's Wrath falls,. and the Anti-Christ is thus released to go forth conquering at the 1260 as a part of God's Wrath, he allows him to bring Israel to repentance, just like he used Babylon, Greece and Rome.
I have been called unto Prophecy 40 years, a lot longer than you my young friend. I know about the Unsealed site, I keep up with all things. I miss nothing.
No, and you repeating it changes nothing. There are only 7 Judgment Trumps. The First Four are ONE EVENT, an Asteroid (named Apophis) hitting in the Sea (just off the California Coast) It Breaks apart and sets the trees afire (Trump #1) Then it makes IMPACT (Trump #2) Then we get a FALLOUT that poisons the fresh waters in the 1/3 (this represents North and South America) that's why its called "Wormwood" and this is Trump #3 then finally, because of all the Smoke from the Fires in the New World we see Trump #4, the Sun and Moon sees their "Light being filtered by 1/3" and thus this fulfill Seal #6. Its not relevant what you once believed, who cares, I believed there was 21 judgments for over 30 years, it is NOT IMPORTANT what we believe, all that is importsant is what God/Jesus is telling us.
Again, the Seals are Prophetic in Nature. There are only 7 Judgments, the Vials are the 3rd Woe, did you not know that? Now go read Rev. 8:13 the Three Trumps yet to sound are the THREE WOES, so in Rev. 11 when they says the 3rd Woe will come quickly, and the 7th Trump is blown and we are told Jesus will have victory, we do nit get the DETAILS of the 3rd Woe, just like when Woe 2 is spoken of in Rev. 11 we do not get the DETAILS of the 2nd Woe either, we can see the 2nd Woe details in Rev. 9 and we can see the DETAILS of the 3rd Woe in Rev. 16, the 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe, so it EMITS from the 7th Trump, there in all of the Judgments EMIT from the 7 Trumps.
Those who can't be corrected can not learn.
ALL SEVEN (7) MUST BE LOOSED BEFORE JUDGMENTS CAN FALL
The Trumpet Judgments will not be read aloud (brought to pass) until ALL SEVEN WAX SEALS are taken off, its not hard at all to understand if one leaves their misconceptions at the door. So, in Rev. 10, when it says the Seven Thunders end time as we know it you know why you can't grasp that is the 7 Trumpet Judgments? Because the 7 Trumpet Judgments are the complete Judgments, there are no Seal Judgments. So how do we get Judgments in Revelation, what starts the DOTL ? The Asteroid Impact starts it all, that happens in Rev. 8, who flees Judea ? Israel )the 144,000 is a CODE just like the Woman, God doesn't not chose a perfect number, 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 is simply Fulness x Completeness. So, now without tat other BLOCK we can see Rev. 7 is the Jews fleeing Judea JUST BEFORE God's Wrath falls,. and the Anti-Christ is thus released to go forth conquering at the 1260 as a part of God's Wrath, he allows him to bring Israel to repentance, just like he used Babylon, Greece and Rome.
I have been called unto Prophecy 40 years, a lot longer than you my young friend. I know about the Unsealed site, I keep up with all things. I miss nothing.
No, and you repeating it changes nothing. There are only 7 Judgment Trumps. The First Four are ONE EVENT, an Asteroid (named Apophis) hitting in the Sea (just off the California Coast) It Breaks apart and sets the trees afire (Trump #1) Then it makes IMPACT (Trump #2) Then we get a FALLOUT that poisons the fresh waters in the 1/3 (this represents North and South America) that's why its called "Wormwood" and this is Trump #3 then finally, because of all the Smoke from the Fires in the New World we see Trump #4, the Sun and Moon sees their "Light being filtered by 1/3" and thus this fulfill Seal #6. Its not relevant what you once believed, who cares, I believed there was 21 judgments for over 30 years, it is NOT IMPORTANT what we believe, all that is importsant is what God/Jesus is telling us.
Again, the Seals are Prophetic in Nature. There are only 7 Judgments, the Vials are the 3rd Woe, did you not know that? Now go read Rev. 8:13 the Three Trumps yet to sound are the THREE WOES, so in Rev. 11 when they says the 3rd Woe will come quickly, and the 7th Trump is blown and we are told Jesus will have victory, we do nit get the DETAILS of the 3rd Woe, just like when Woe 2 is spoken of in Rev. 11 we do not get the DETAILS of the 2nd Woe either, we can see the 2nd Woe details in Rev. 9 and we can see the DETAILS of the 3rd Woe in Rev. 16, the 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe, so it EMITS from the 7th Trump, there in all of the Judgments EMIT from the 7 Trumps.
Those who can't be corrected can not learn.
YES...............
@Rondonmon - you do not realize this yet, but - you are the one here who is most-in-error.
And, the question is - can you be corrected or will you never learn...???
@Rondonmon - you do not realize this yet, but - you are the one here who is most-in-error.
And, the question is - can you be corrected or will you never learn...???
I must disagree.
The first seal is: the arrival of the "man of sin" ("in his time")... at the 7-yr Trib's commencement, 2Th2:9a / Dan9:27a[,26b] / Dan11:36, etc (which is yet "future");
Consider what I'd put in my Post #207 of another thread:
https://christianchat.com/threads/there-will-be-no-rapture.212356/post-5144416
[everything in Matthew 24:4 [thru chpt 25] is speaking of that which will take place FOLLOWING "our Rapture"... and instead covers the Subject of His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19) FOR the earthly MK age, and that time-period which immediately precedes and leads up to THAT, i.e. the 7-yr Trib yrs... (Jesus is not covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" anywhere in His Olivet Discourse, btw)]
He only covers the "70ad events" is in Lk21:12-24a,b, and in a cpl verses in each: Mt24:2 / Mk13:2 / Lk:21:5-6;
... but the SEQUENCE wording in Lk21:12 informs us that "But BEFORE ALL THESE [i.e. BEFORE all these 'beginning of BPs' just described in vv.8-11]" the 70ad events of vv.12-24a must take place FIRST. (and not "immediately before," note...)
The first seal is: the arrival of the "man of sin" ("in his time")... at the 7-yr Trib's commencement, 2Th2:9a / Dan9:27a[,26b] / Dan11:36, etc (which is yet "future");
Consider what I'd put in my Post #207 of another thread:
https://christianchat.com/threads/there-will-be-no-rapture.212356/post-5144416
[everything in Matthew 24:4 [thru chpt 25] is speaking of that which will take place FOLLOWING "our Rapture"... and instead covers the Subject of His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19) FOR the earthly MK age, and that time-period which immediately precedes and leads up to THAT, i.e. the 7-yr Trib yrs... (Jesus is not covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" anywhere in His Olivet Discourse, btw)]
He only covers the "70ad events" is in Lk21:12-24a,b, and in a cpl verses in each: Mt24:2 / Mk13:2 / Lk:21:5-6;
... but the SEQUENCE wording in Lk21:12 informs us that "But BEFORE ALL THESE [i.e. BEFORE all these 'beginning of BPs' just described in vv.8-11]" the 70ad events of vv.12-24a must take place FIRST. (and not "immediately before," note...)
Rev1:1 states, "to SHEW UNTO his servants things which MUST COME TO PASS IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... and that "SHEW" (starting in 4:1's "SHEW") proves to include the "Seals, Trumpets, Vials," all.
(Everything from 4:1 onward [till His Rev19 RETURN to the earth] is "the things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," i.e. the 7-yr Tribulation Period commonly so-called.)
(Everything from 4:1 onward [till His Rev19 RETURN to the earth] is "the things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," i.e. the 7-yr Tribulation Period commonly so-called.)
