Darby's own group of brethren, known by others as the Plymouth Brethren, didn't all accept his novel idea. George Muller didn't. I read a brethren comment on his teaching, maybe from Mueller that pointed out that the Lord's coming wouldn't occur until after the man of sin was revealed, referring to II Thessalonians 2.
There will be no Rapture!!!
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Darby's own group of brethren, known by others as the Plymouth Brethren, didn't all accept his novel idea. George Muller didn't. I read a brethren comment on his teaching, maybe from Mueller that pointed out that the Lord's coming wouldn't occur until after the man of sin was revealed, referring to II Thessalonians 2.
Irenaeus made many clear statements that the the church would be here when the Antichrist and his ten horns come to power. If you look at all his writings on the Antichrist and the tribulation, he clearly taught that believers would go through the tribulation; he wasn't vague. The pseudo-scholar Lee Brainard has taken one, somewhat awkwardly-worded sentence, and tried to force it into a pre-trib framework. Virtually all true scholars of eschatology and the early church "fathers" agree they were overwhelmingly post-trib. They believed they were in the tribulation back then. If they were pre-trib, why would they think that? (See John Walvoord, The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation, pg. 24)
Thanks for pointing this out. I've seen people trying to take quotes from some of the first Christian writers and try to spin ambiguous or vaguely worded quotes as pre-trib. My argument is that there is no evidence for anyone believing in pre-trib before them (especially in the Bible), where would they have gotten the idea?
Do you have the quote they try to spin along with quotes about the 10 horns? I may have come across this in the past, but if you know where to find it, it would be good to see.
Why don't you compare it to something relevant. Hmmm. Let's look at II Thessalonians 2:1, which also refers to our gathering together to Christ and uses the Greek word επισυναγωγης, which we reference with the form ἐπισυναγωγή, which is again G1997 in the Strong's dictionary!!!!
II Thessalonians 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
Isn't he talking about the GATHERING that happens at the rapture? Notice he working here. In Matthew 24, we read about the coming, parousia, of the Son of man and the gathering (the word above) of the elect.
In II Thessalonians 2, we read about the coming (form of parousia) of the Lord and our gathering (same word you describe above) unto him.
I Thessalonians 4 speaks of the parousia and the rapture.
Where does it say that? It says the sign of the Son of man coming on the _CLOUDS_ of heaven with power and great glory. I Thessalonians 4 gives us some details about the rapture:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Indeed, but Darby's theory can be called a theory. That's probably too favorable a term.
Precious friend, doesn't surprise me in the least - just look at what
happened in Paul's own day of ministering The Gospel Of Grace ( Which
Ends With Great GRACE Departure! ):
2Ti_1:15 "This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia
be turned away from me!..."
Begs the question: How many of the 'church today' have "turned away" from Paul?
Amen.
+
No Other Doctrine
See the video I posted above in post #76; and the John Walvoord reference in post #82.
Are you under the belief that the Lord will catch us up only to bring us immediately back down? Up and down we go...
Why should any part of His body fear death so far as expecting to escape it?
Most of his body has died. Are you under the belief that only a small part of his body will suffer through the tribulation? Will his whole body be resurrected to suffer through it, lol?
God let Paul preach, then was beaten, lied about, pre-sentenced, tossed into a jail cell all battered and bruised...God watched it all.
God ain't Concerned about OUR COMFORT!
He, only is concerned about how He is getting His Will done through those who give theirs to Him.
the Prophets were beaten and many were eventually murdered by means that are indescribable, but GOD, watched it, because it fulfilled His Purpose!
it strikes the wonderment within the mind to consider, has God Changed?
And this Generation will be exempt?
no doubt, from 1800's until now, Followers of God, in America, had it so made it's made many of us snowflakes.
that trend, in these coming days, don't seem to be jiving up. And I think, we will see things we have never considered as obstacles before it is all said and done with...for us, on this forum, and other current Followers of the Most High God.
God ain't Concerned about OUR COMFORT!
He, only is concerned about how He is getting His Will done through those who give theirs to Him.
the Prophets were beaten and many were eventually murdered by means that are indescribable, but GOD, watched it, because it fulfilled His Purpose!
it strikes the wonderment within the mind to consider, has God Changed?
And this Generation will be exempt?
no doubt, from 1800's until now, Followers of God, in America, had it so made it's made many of us snowflakes.
that trend, in these coming days, don't seem to be jiving up. And I think, we will see things we have never considered as obstacles before it is all said and done with...for us, on this forum, and other current Followers of the Most High God.
Great debate about Pre-Trib and Post Trib Rapture
These 2 Older gentlemen present their case ---and they do it with grace -----Worth the Listen -----
Rapture Debate (David Pawson v Derek Walker
When is the Rapture of the Church? David Pawson says Post-Tribulation and Derek Walker says Pre-Tribulation. This may seem an incidental issue, but it has a big impact on how we understand end-time prophecy, and on our Christian life. Should we be preparing for the antichrist or looking for Christ's imminent Return?
These 2 Older gentlemen present their case ---and they do it with grace -----Worth the Listen -----
Rapture Debate (David Pawson v Derek Walker
When is the Rapture of the Church? David Pawson says Post-Tribulation and Derek Walker says Pre-Tribulation. This may seem an incidental issue, but it has a big impact on how we understand end-time prophecy, and on our Christian life. Should we be preparing for the antichrist or looking for Christ's imminent Return?