There will be no Rapture!!!

[presidente]

You would think a subject as important as this would be often taught doctrine, common knowledge in the old church, but it isn't.
For instance, Darby did write about it in the 19th century, & apparently he was the only one who wrote about it then.
How many times do we go to the old books written to prove our doctrines? Yet here we are, bickering in frustration about a doctrine that either way should have been in many old commentaries, but isn't. I mean much older books. For instance, Irenaeus mentions it vaguely, but not directly.
So because it wasn't as important to teach directly then as a solid doctrine, here we are halting between two opinions. I can only suppose back then it was so commonly known nobody saw the need to teach it.
This is a good example of how important it is to teach/preach the whole word of God, & not just our favorite subjects.

Darby's own group of brethren, known by others as the Plymouth Brethren, didn't all accept his novel idea. George Muller didn't. I read a brethren comment on his teaching, maybe from Mueller that pointed out that the Lord's coming wouldn't occur until after the man of sin was revealed, referring to II Thessalonians 2.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Irenaeus made many clear statements that the the church would be here when the Antichrist and his ten horns come to power. If you look at all his writings on the Antichrist and the tribulation, he clearly taught that believers would go through the tribulation; he wasn't vague. The pseudo-scholar Lee Brainard has taken one, somewhat awkwardly-worded sentence, and tried to force it into a pre-trib framework. Virtually all true scholars of eschatology and the early church "fathers" agree they were overwhelmingly post-trib. They believed they were in the tribulation back then. If they were pre-trib, why would they think that? (See John Walvoord, The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation, pg. 24)

 

[presidente]

Irenaeus made many clear statements that the the church would be here when the Antichrist and his ten horns come to power. If you look at all his writings on the Antichrist and the tribulation, he clearly taught that believers would go through the tribulation; he wasn't vague. The pseudo-scholar Lee Brainard has taken one, somewhat awkwardly-worded sentence, and tried to force it into a pre-trib framework. Virtually all true scholars of eschatology and the early church "fathers" agree they were overwhelmingly post-trib. They believed they were in the tribulation back then. If they were pre-trib, why would they think that? (See John Walvoord, The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation, pg. 24)

Thanks for pointing this out. I've seen people trying to take quotes from some of the first Christian writers and try to spin ambiguous or vaguely worded quotes as pre-trib. My argument is that there is no evidence for anyone believing in pre-trib before them (especially in the Bible), where would they have gotten the idea?

Do you have the quote they try to spin along with quotes about the 10 horns? I may have come across this in the past, but if you know where to find it, it would be good to see.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Your theory here takes references to the Lord's coming, assumes it is two events... with no scripture to back it up

God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided can hardly be a theory:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Amen.

 

[presidente]

THE GATHERING vs THE RAPTURE

Many people claim the “gathering” at Christ’s second coming is the “rapture”. Let’s do word studies to see if that’s true.

=============================================

Here’s the verses used for the end time “gathering”:

2Thess 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our GATHERING TOGETHER to Him, we ask you,

G1997

ἐπισυναγωγή

episunagōgē

ep-ee-soon-ag-o-gay’

From G1996; a complete collection; specifically a Christian meeting (for worship): – ASSEMBLING (gathering) together.

Why don't you compare it to something relevant. Hmmm. Let's look at II Thessalonians 2:1, which also refers to our gathering together to Christ and uses the Greek word επισυναγωγης, which we reference with the form ἐπισυναγωγή, which is again G1997 in the Strong's dictionary!!!!

II Thessalonians 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Isn't he talking about the GATHERING that happens at the rapture? Notice he working here. In Matthew 24, we read about the coming, parousia, of the Son of man and the gathering (the word above) of the elect.

In II Thessalonians 2, we read about the coming (form of parousia) of the Lord and our gathering (same word you describe above) unto him.

I Thessalonians 4 speaks of the parousia and the rapture.

Matt 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

G1996

ἐπισυνάγω

episunagō

ep-ee-soon-ag’-o

From G1909 and G4863; to COLLECT UPON THE SAME PLACE: – gather (together).

The “gathering” at the Lord’s second coming is an assembling together in the same place… based on context, that would be Jerusalem.

Where does it say that? It says the sign of the Son of man coming on the _CLOUDS_ of heaven with power and great glory. I Thessalonians 4 gives us some details about the rapture:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[presidente]

God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided can hardly be a theory:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Amen.

Indeed, but Darby's theory can be called a theory. That's probably too favorable a term.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

You would think a subject as important as this would be often taught doctrine, common knowledge in the old church, but it isn't.

Precious friend, doesn't surprise me in the least - just look at what
happened in Paul's own day of ministering The Gospel Of Grace ( Which
Ends With Great GRACE Departure! ):

2Ti_1:15 "This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia​

be turned away from me!..."​

Begs the question: How many of the 'church today' have "turned away" from Paul?

Amen.
+
No Other Doctrine

 

[ResidentAlien]

Thanks for pointing this out. I've seen people trying to take quotes from some of the first Christian writers and try to spin ambiguous or vaguely worded quotes as pre-trib. My argument is that there is no evidence for anyone believing in pre-trib before them (especially in the Bible), where would they have gotten the idea?

Do you have the quote they try to spin along with quotes about the 10 horns? I may have come across this in the past, but if you know where to find it, it would be good to see.

See the video I posted above in post #76; and the John Walvoord reference in post #82.

 

[John146]

To all of you who believe the body of Christ will go through the tribulation, my question to you is, which part of Christ's body will he allow to suffer the tribulation? All of his body? Parts of his body?

 

[John146]

Thanks for pointing this out. I've seen people trying to take quotes from some of the first Christian writers and try to spin ambiguous or vaguely worded quotes as pre-trib. My argument is that there is no evidence for anyone believing in pre-trib before them (especially in the Bible), where would they have gotten the idea?

Do you have the quote they try to spin along with quotes about the 10 horns? I may have come across this in the past, but if you know where to find it, it would be good to see.

It makes no difference. God has a way to reveal truth to man as man needs it.

 

[John146]

Indeed, but Darby's theory can be called a theory. That's probably too favorable a term.

Are you under the belief that the Lord will catch us up only to bring us immediately back down? Up and down we go...

 

[ResidentAlien]

To all of you who believe the body of Christ will go through the tribulation, my question to you is, which part of Christ's body will he allow to suffer the tribulation? All of his body? Parts of his body?

Probably the pre-tribbers mostly. That's a joke.

 

[Mem]

To all of you who believe the body of Christ will go through the tribulation, my question to you is, which part of Christ's body will he allow to suffer the tribulation? All of his body? Parts of his body?

Why should any part of His body fear death so far as expecting to escape it?

 

[John146]

Why should any part of His body fear death so far as expecting to escape it?

My question is not about death, but the tribulation, you know, the worst time in human history. Which part of his body will have to suffer it?

 

[John146]

Probably the pre-tribbers mostly. That's a joke.

Most of his body has died. Are you under the belief that only a small part of his body will suffer through the tribulation? Will his whole body be resurrected to suffer through it, lol?

 

[John146]

Many on this thread must be storing up food and supplies...

 

[ResidentAlien]

Most of his body has died. Are you under the belief that only a small part of his body will suffer through the tribulation? Will his whole body be resurrected to suffer through it, lol?

I hate chess; it's the most boring game I know of.

 

[PennEd]

The Bible tells us a number of things that happen at the Lord's coming. Your theory here takes references to the Lord's coming, assumes it is two events... with no scripture to back it up... then assigns some verses to the made-up coming of Christ, and some verses to the coming of the Lord.

I'm glad you just contradicted yourself. Now I don't have to.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

God let Paul preach, then was beaten, lied about, pre-sentenced, tossed into a jail cell all battered and bruised...God watched it all.
God ain't Concerned about OUR COMFORT!
He, only is concerned about how He is getting His Will done through those who give theirs to Him.

the Prophets were beaten and many were eventually murdered by means that are indescribable, but GOD, watched it, because it fulfilled His Purpose!

it strikes the wonderment within the mind to consider, has God Changed?
And this Generation will be exempt?
no doubt, from 1800's until now, Followers of God, in America, had it so made it's made many of us snowflakes.
that trend, in these coming days, don't seem to be jiving up. And I think, we will see things we have never considered as obstacles before it is all said and done with...for us, on this forum, and other current Followers of the Most High God.

 

[studentoftheword]

Great debate about Pre-Trib and Post Trib Rapture

These 2 Older gentlemen present their case ---and they do it with grace -----Worth the Listen -----

Rapture Debate (David Pawson v Derek Walker

When is the Rapture of the Church? David Pawson says Post-Tribulation and Derek Walker says Pre-Tribulation. This may seem an incidental issue, but it has a big impact on how we understand end-time prophecy, and on our Christian life. Should we be preparing for the antichrist or looking for Christ's imminent Return?