There will be no Rapture!!!

[Radius]

It so very clear, if it were not for false preaches I don't think anyone wholu believe anything other than "immediately after the tribulation of those days.....all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds"

Matthew 24:29-31, “And immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. “And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. “And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

see my post above. the gathering is not the same greek word as caught up, or "harpazo" in 1 thess. 4.

Those who remain (saved tribulation saints) until the 2nd coming will be gathered from all over the earth and brought to Jerusalem. That's what you're falsely attributing to being "harpazo'ed" where there will be a snatching away (again, in 1 thess 4)

Two different words!

 

[SpeakTruth101]

see my post above. the gathering is not the same greek word as caught up, or "harpazo" in 1 thess. 4.

Those who remain (saved tribulation saints) until the 2nd coming will be gathered from all over the earth and brought to Jerusalem. That's what you're falsely attributing to being "harpazo'ed" where there will be a snatching away (again, in 1 thess 4)

Two different words!

speaking of the same event...

" and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. “And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

Being a part of this is as good as it gets "they shall gather together His chosen ones"

 

[Radius]

speaking of the same event...

" and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. “And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

Being a part of this is as good as it gets "they shall gather together His chosen ones"

THE GATHERING vs THE RAPTURE

Many people claim the “gathering” at Christ’s second coming is the “rapture”. Let’s do word studies to see if that’s true.

=============================================

Here’s the verses used for the end time “gathering”:

2Thess 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our GATHERING TOGETHER to Him, we ask you,

G1997

ἐπισυναγωγή

episunagōgē

ep-ee-soon-ag-o-gay’

From G1996; a complete collection; specifically a Christian meeting (for worship): – ASSEMBLING (gathering) together.

Matt 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

G1996

ἐπισυνάγω

episunagō

ep-ee-soon-ag’-o

From G1909 and G4863; to COLLECT UPON THE SAME PLACE: – gather (together).

The “gathering” at the Lord’s second coming is an assembling together in the same place… based on context, that would be Jerusalem.

Scripture translates other words as “gather” in instances such as the wheat/tares harvest, so let’s look at one verse that uses two other options:

Matt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First GATHER TOGETHER the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but GATHER the wheat into my barn.”

In speaking of the tares its:

G4816

συλλέγω

sullegō

sool-leg’-o

From G4862 and G3004 in its original sense; to COLLECT – gather (together, up).

In speaking of the wheat its:

G4863

συνάγω

sunagō

soon-ag’-o

From G4862 and G71; to lead together, that is, COLLECT or convene; specifically to entertain (hospitably): – + accompany, ASSEMBLE (selves, together), bestow, come together, gather (selves together, up, together), lead into, resort, take in.

***EVERY use of the word “gather” in verses pertaining to His second coming and the wheat/tares harvest means to collect or assemble in one place… with context implying that place is Jerusalem where He comes back and will be! There is NO indication that He assembles them together in Jerusalem then takes them away somewhere, then comes back down with them again… which is the YO-YO theory, and would have Him coming back TWICE.

=============================================

NOW, let’s look at the uses of the word rapture… harpazo:

Acts 8:39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord CAUGHT Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

2Cor 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago –whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows such a one was CAUGHT UP to the third heaven.

2Cor 12:4 how he was CAUGHT UP into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

1Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev 12:5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was CAUGHT UP to God and His throne.

G726

ἁρπάζω

harpazō

har-pad’-zo

From a derivative of G138; TO SEIZE (in various applications): – catch (away, up), pluck, pull, TAKE (BY FORCE).

***EVERY verse pertaining to a rapture shows it means a taking away by force… and 4 of the 5 verses tells us they were taken where? … to the third heaven, into paradise, in the clouds to meet Jesus, to God and His throne.

=============================================

***The conclusion is that the “gathering” at His second coming can NOT be the same as a “rapture”. Please stop using scripture incorrectly to claim the rapture happens at the wheat/tares harvest or at His second coming!

 

[SpeakTruth101]

THE GATHERING vs THE RAPTURE

Many people claim the “gathering” at Christ’s second coming is the “rapture”. Let’s do word studies to see if that’s true.

=============================================

Here’s the verses used for the end time “gathering”:

2Thess 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our GATHERING TOGETHER to Him, we ask you,

G1997

ἐπισυναγωγή

episunagōgē

ep-ee-soon-ag-o-gay’

From G1996; a complete collection; specifically a Christian meeting (for worship): – ASSEMBLING (gathering) together.

Matt 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

G1996

ἐπισυνάγω

episunagō

ep-ee-soon-ag’-o

From G1909 and G4863; to COLLECT UPON THE SAME PLACE: – gather (together).

The “gathering” at the Lord’s second coming is an assembling together in the same place… based on context, that would be Jerusalem.

Scripture translates other words as “gather” in instances such as the wheat/tares harvest, so let’s look at one verse that uses two other options:

Matt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First GATHER TOGETHER the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but GATHER the wheat into my barn.”

In speaking of the tares its:

G4816

συλλέγω

sullegō

sool-leg’-o

From G4862 and G3004 in its original sense; to COLLECT – gather (together, up).

In speaking of the wheat its:

G4863

συνάγω

sunagō

soon-ag’-o

From G4862 and G71; to lead together, that is, COLLECT or convene; specifically to entertain (hospitably): – + accompany, ASSEMBLE (selves, together), bestow, come together, gather (selves together, up, together), lead into, resort, take in.

***EVERY use of the word “gather” in verses pertaining to His second coming and the wheat/tares harvest means to collect or assemble in one place… with context implying that place is Jerusalem where He comes back and will be! There is NO indication that He assembles them together in Jerusalem then takes them away somewhere, then comes back down with them again… which is the YO-YO theory, and would have Him coming back TWICE.

=============================================

NOW, let’s look at the uses of the word rapture… harpazo:

Acts 8:39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord CAUGHT Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

2Cor 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago –whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows such a one was CAUGHT UP to the third heaven.

2Cor 12:4 how he was CAUGHT UP into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

1Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev 12:5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was CAUGHT UP to God and His throne.

G726

ἁρπάζω

harpazō

har-pad’-zo

From a derivative of G138; TO SEIZE (in various applications): – catch (away, up), pluck, pull, TAKE (BY FORCE).

***EVERY verse pertaining to a rapture shows it means a taking away by force… and 4 of the 5 verses tells us they were taken where? … to the third heaven, into paradise, in the clouds to meet Jesus, to God and His throne.

=============================================

***The conclusion is that the “gathering” at His second coming can NOT be the same as a “rapture”. Please stop using scripture incorrectly to claim the rapture happens at the wheat/tares harvest or at His second coming!

I know what harpazō is, and the "rapture" done by Yahshua/Jesus is the same event He Himself describes here, just different wording is used.

Matthew 24:29-31, “And immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. “And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. “And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

Tell me, does the passage you are quoting say anything about " sound of a trumpet" just as this one does?

 

[Grace911]

A long time ago I read the "Left Behind" series where the rapture takes out all the believers and what is left is the unbelievers who now have a chance to become believers. However, that is not accurate according to Yeshua/Jesus own words.

Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Mat_24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mar_13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Is it possible that before "the end of this world" that we are witnessing and for some experiencing Global Catastrophe's, particularly extreme weather phenomens that the World Rulers and worldly scientist are calling Global Warming? Perhaps this Global Warming is actually Global WARNING and a little time left to return to God and repent of all our iniquities?

If we continue to sin after accepting Jesus for atonement of our sins, there is no further sacrifice available.

The message is do not continue sinning, and when you recognize you have broken the law/sinned, ask forgiveness immediately and do not continue down that path.

Psalms 91:7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.

I believe the "tribulation" has begun, and is not necessarily a 7 year event. The end of the 6th millennium is 2044/2045 AD.

To cut is short, could look something like this. Counting the Fall Feasts as years instead of days.

Day 22 = 2045 (beginning of 7th millenium) like the Great Eighth Day. Lev 23:39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
Day 21 = 2044 (7th day/year of Sukkot)
Day 20 = 2043 (6th day/year of Sukkot)
Day 19 = 2042 (5th day/year of Sukkot)
Day 18 = 2041 (4th day/year of Sukkot)
Day 17 = 2040 (3rd day/year of Sukkot)
Day 16 =2039 (2nd day/year of Sukkot)
Day 15 = 2038 (!st day/year of Sukkot)
Day 14 = 2037
Day 13 = 2036
Day 12 = 2035
Day 11 = 2034
Day 10 = 2033 (Day/Year of Atonement)
Day 9 = 2032
Day 8 = 2031
Day 7 = 2030 (Shabbat Shuva)
Day 6 =2029
Day 5 = 2028
Day 4 = 2027
Day 3 = 2026
Day 2 = 2025
1st day of 7th month =2024 (Feast of Trumpets = Judgment begins)

In chart form, it would look like this:



Day of Atonement (represented above as the year 2033 AD) is the Day Satan is locked away.

We have Ten Years of "Awe" between 2024 and 2033. The Wheat Harvest is represented at Pentecost/Shavuot. Just like the first Exodus, this Greater Exodus God's people do not have to suffer the last 7 plagues.

Satan knows his time is short.

Rev_1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev_12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev_17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Rev_22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

I can already hear the protests, how can we know? The answer lies in knowing the Jubilee and Sabbatical years.

45 Sabbatical PROOFS with Documentation = 45 Witnesses saying the same thing

See all 120 Jubilee cycles

The following is my OPINION and I think every person has at least one. Based on my studies and counting of days (thus my mem is my prayer = Psalms 90:12 - So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom.)

I believe the possibility of the TWO WITNESSES starting their ministry will begin 9/11-12/2026. They will be calling for God's people to be brought to Israel, thus the Greater Exodus is what it will be called.

911 is a very important number. Yeshua was born on 9/11/3 BC. The first verse in the Bible begins with "In the beginning" = reyshiyth = 911 PLUS in Hebrew a LARGE BET STARTING THE WORD = HOUSE/2. Searching the KJV for number of occurences/matches to "house" is 2026. And the last scripture of the entire Bible (Revelation 22:21) is Grace = charis = 911. (Remember the first shall be last and the last shall be first - wages given at the end of the day).

The "Rapture" would be the end of the 7 years starting from 7th month (9/11)2026 to 3rd month (6/5/2033) Shavuot 2033, then that very short period happens between Shavuot/Pentecost 2033 rapture "Wheat Harvest" and Day of Atonement (October 5, 2033) when Satan is locked away. Four months!! (Check out another reference to 4 months that Yeshua gives = John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest. (Is Yeshua telling us that 3rd month Shavuot is when the Wheat is ready and not to look to the 7th month - Feast of Trumpets? )

Also note the Two Witnesses will be killed on Day 1256 and rise and be called up hither on Day 1260. This Day 1256 is Shushan Purim Adar (12th month) 15th day. (Roman year February 18-21, 2030 AD). This is a day that "gifts are given" for this man-made tradition.

Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

So I don't know anything until after the fact, but none the less I wait and I watch and I pray "Come Lord, Come".

 

[NightTwister]

A long time ago I read the "Left Behind" series where the rapture takes out all the believers and what is left is the unbelievers who now have a chance to become believers. However, that is not accurate according to Yeshua/Jesus own words.

Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Mat_24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mar_13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Is it possible that before "the end of this world" that we are witnessing and for some experiencing Global Catastrophe's, particularly extreme weather phenomens that the World Rulers and worldly scientist are calling Global Warming? Perhaps this Global Warming is actually Global WARNING and a little time left to return to God and repent of all our iniquities?

If we continue to sin after accepting Jesus for atonement of our sins, there is no further sacrifice available.

The message is do not continue sinning, and when you recognize you have broken the law/sinned, ask forgiveness immediately and do not continue down that path.

Psalms 91:7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.

I believe the "tribulation" has begun, and is not necessarily a 7 year event. The end of the 6th millennium is 2044/2045 AD.

To cut is short, could look something like this. Counting the Fall Feasts as years instead of days.

Day 22 = 2045 (beginning of 7th millenium) like the Great Eighth Day. Lev 23:39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
Day 21 = 2044 (7th day/year of Sukkot)
Day 20 = 2043 (6th day/year of Sukkot)
Day 19 = 2042 (5th day/year of Sukkot)
Day 18 = 2041 (4th day/year of Sukkot)
Day 17 = 2040 (3rd day/year of Sukkot)
Day 16 =2039 (2nd day/year of Sukkot)
Day 15 = 2038 (!st day/year of Sukkot)
Day 14 = 2037
Day 13 = 2036
Day 12 = 2035
Day 11 = 2034
Day 10 = 2033 (Day/Year of Atonement)
Day 9 = 2032
Day 8 = 2031
Day 7 = 2030 (Shabbat Shuva)
Day 6 =2029
Day 5 = 2028
Day 4 = 2027
Day 3 = 2026
Day 2 = 2025
1st day of 7th month =2024 (Feast of Trumpets = Judgment begins)

In chart form, it would look like this:

View attachment 255482

Day of Atonement (represented above as the year 2033 AD) is the Day Satan is locked away.

We have Ten Years of "Awe" between 2024 and 2033. The Wheat Harvest is represented at Pentecost/Shavuot. Just like the first Exodus, this Greater Exodus God's people do not have to suffer the last 7 plagues.

Satan knows his time is short.

Rev_1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev_12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev_17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Rev_22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

I can already hear the protests, how can we know? The answer lies in knowing the Jubilee and Sabbatical years.

45 Sabbatical PROOFS with Documentation = 45 Witnesses saying the same thing

See all 120 Jubilee cycles

The following is my OPINION and I think every person has at least one. Based on my studies and counting of days (thus my mem is my prayer = Psalms 90:12 - So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom.)

I believe the possibility of the TWO WITNESSES starting their ministry will begin 9/11-12/2026. They will be calling for God's people to be brought to Israel, thus the Greater Exodus is what it will be called.

911 is a very important number. Yeshua was born on 9/11/3 BC. The first verse in the Bible begins with "In the beginning" = reyshiyth = 911 PLUS in Hebrew a LARGE BET STARTING THE WORD = HOUSE/2. Searching the KJV for number of occurences/matches to "house" is 2026. And the last scripture of the entire Bible (Revelation 22:21) is Grace = charis = 911. (Remember the first shall be last and the last shall be first - wages given at the end of the day).

The "Rapture" would be the end of the 7 years starting from 7th month (9/11)2026 to 3rd month (6/5/2033) Shavuot 2033, then that very short period happens between Shavuot/Pentecost 2033 rapture "Wheat Harvest" and Day of Atonement (October 5, 2033) when Satan is locked away. Four months!! (Check out another reference to 4 months that Yeshua gives = John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest. (Is Yeshua telling us that 3rd month Shavuot is when the Wheat is ready and not to look to the 7th month - Feast of Trumpets? )

Also note the Two Witnesses will be killed on Day 1256 and rise and be called up hither on Day 1260. This Day 1256 is Shushan PurimAdar (12th month) 15th day. (Roman year February 18-21, 2030 AD). This is a day that "gifts are given" for this man-made tradition.

Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

So I don't know anything until after the fact, but none the less I wait and I watch and I pray "Come Lord, Come".

Dates! I love dates!!

 

[Radius]

I know what harpazō is, and the "rapture" done by Yahshua/Jesus is the same event He Himself describes here, just different wording is used.

Matthew 24:29-31, “And immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. “And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. “And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

Tell me, does the passage you are quoting say anything about " sound of a trumpet" just as this one does?

There are many trumpets blown. the "trumpet" mentioned in Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4 refers to different events.

1. Matthew 24: In Matthew 24, Jesus is giving a discourse known as the Olivet Discourse. He speaks about signs of the end times and his second coming. In verse 31, he mentions the sounding of a trumpet:

"And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:31, ESV)
This trumpet is associated with the gathering of believers after the tribulation period, when Jesus returns to establish his kingdom.

1. 1 Thessalonians 4: In 1 Thessalonians 4, the Apostle Paul writes about the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture of living believers. Here, he mentions the trumpet in relation to the rapture event:

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, ESV)

This trumpet signifies the moment when Jesus will call believers, both the resurrected and the living, to meet him in the air.

While Both passages mention trumpets and are related to eschatological events, they refer to different occurrences. Matthew 24 talks about the trumpet associated with the gathering of believers after the tribulation, while 1 Thessalonians 4 discusses the trumpet associated with the rapture of believers.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

There are many trumpets blown. the "trumpet" mentioned in Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4 refers to different events.

1. Matthew 24: In Matthew 24, Jesus is giving a discourse known as the Olivet Discourse. He speaks about signs of the end times and his second coming. In verse 31, he mentions the sounding of a trumpet:

"And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:31, ESV)
This trumpet is associated with the gathering of believers after the tribulation period, when Jesus returns to establish his kingdom.

1. 1 Thessalonians 4: In 1 Thessalonians 4, the Apostle Paul writes about the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture of living believers. Here, he mentions the trumpet in relation to the rapture event:

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, ESV)

This trumpet signifies the moment when Jesus will call believers, both the resurrected and the living, to meet him in the air.

While Both passages mention trumpets and are related to eschatological events, they refer to different occurrences. Matthew 24 talks about the trumpet associated with the gathering of believers after the tribulation, while 1 Thessalonians 4 discusses the trumpet associated with the rapture of believers.

However Yahshua retrns at the 7th trumpet

Revelation 11:15, “And the seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

there is only one return not two.

 

[wolfwint]

There will be no pre or mid tribulation rapture. This is an invention of the dispensationalists. The Pre-Rapture was invented by the dispensationalist John Darby in the 19th century. It did not exist before that. Church history did not know a Pre-Rapture before the 19th century.

The Bible clearly states that Christians must go through the Tribulation, for Revelation 20:4 describes how Christians will be beheaded for their faith during the Tribulation. If there really was a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then logically there would be no Christians in the Tribulation, but because there will be Christians in the Tribulation, that means there will be no Pre-Tribulation Rapture! Revelation 13:7 also declares that Christians will be given into the hand of the Antichrist, which means the Antichrist may overcome Christians and kill them.

Jesus will return only once and that is after the tribulation. Then he will gather all Christians.

Thats the point! There are no Christians during tribulation. So far I cant find any hinter for that theory.
Believers yes, but not the church/bride which we belong to.
I believe in pre trib, because a post or mit trib makes no sense. Jesus comes back, when Israel accept him as Messajah and for to deliver Israel on earth. There is no mention of the church during revelation. And also the describing of the rapture makes only sense if there are living Christians there. But according your saying all Christians are killed from the antichrist. So it cant be post trib.
Right?

 

[SpeakTruth101]

Thats the point! There are no Christians during tribulation. So far I cant find any hinter for that theory.
Believers yes, but not the church/bride which we belong to.
I believe in pre trib, because a post or mit trib makes no sense. Jesus comes back, when Israel accept him as Messajah and for to deliver Israel on earth. There is no mention of the church during revelation. And also the describing of the rapture makes only sense if there are living Christians there. But according your saying all Christians are killed from the antichrist. So it cant be post trib.
Right?

CD

It can be post trib pre wrath if Scripture says it is

Matthew 24:29-31, “And immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. “And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. “And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

 

[hornetguy]

 

[Truthnightmare]

Matt 24:21-25
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before. (KJV)

God's Elect shall be on the earth during the Great Tribulation! What did Jesus mean when He said: "Behold, I have told you before"? He was telling us about the false messiah, the spurious messiah, the antichrist whom is satan that shall come to this earth claiming to be the true Messiah. it is written that this antichrist (beast) shall be endowed with supernatural powers to deceive.

Rev 13:12-15
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. (KJV)

Now if all the Christians are Raptured out prior to this, then who is it that are willing to lay down their lives rather than worship this false one? Many on the earth who are waiting for a 'Rapture of the Saints' will believe that the antichrist really is the True Jesus Christ. Could this antichrist fake some kind of 'rapturing' in several stages to deceive the Rapture believing Christians into helping him identify those who are resisting him? Perhaps, it just isn't written, other than that satan (antichrist) will have powers above the ability of men. That is the danger in the Rapture theories, they don't warn the people that there are two saviors coming, first the false savior antichrist, then after him, the True Savior Jesus Christ comes at His Second Advent.

 

[Grace911]

Dates! I love dates!!

I love date bread. Mmmmm

 

[Edify]

Now if all the Christians are Raptured out prior to this, then who is it that are willing to lay down their lives rather than worship this false one?

Tribulation saints. Many of them will be beheaded.

 

[wolfwint]

CD

It can be post trib pre wrath if Scripture says it is

Matthew 24:29-31, “And immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. “And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. “And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

Well, he can mean here the Nation of Israel(jews) and people which come to faith during the tribulation time and are alive.
The disciples were so far the Adressat of this message. They all were jews and knew only the old Testament and what was taught out it.
Why Jesus should mean here the church, which was not exist when he gave this message to his disciples?
Also the description from the rapture in 1st Thessalonicans 4,14 ff and what is written in Matthew is different. So that you cant speak from the same Event.
In 1. Thess are Christians the Adressat and in Mathew 24 jews.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Refuting the claims of pretribbers about Irenaeus.

 

[PennEd]

Couple of charts to highlight the difference between the Rapture and Jesus' Second Coming:

 

[Edify]

You would think a subject as important as this would be often taught doctrine, common knowledge in the old church, but it isn't.
For instance, Darby did write about it in the 19th century, & apparently he was the only one who wrote about it then.
How many times do we go to the old books written to prove our doctrines? Yet here we are, bickering in frustration about a doctrine that either way should have been in many old commentaries, but isn't. I mean much older books. For instance, Irenaeus mentions it vaguely, but not directly.
So because it wasn't as important to teach directly then as a solid doctrine, here we are halting between two opinions. I can only suppose back then it was so commonly known nobody saw the need to teach it.
This is a good example of how important it is to teach/preach the whole word of God, & not just our favorite subjects.

 

[presidente]

There will be no pre or mid tribulation rapture. This is an invention of the dispensationalists. The Pre-Rapture was invented by the dispensationalist John Darby in the 19th century. It did not exist before that. Church history did not know a Pre-Rapture before the 19th century.

The Bible clearly states that Christians must go through the Tribulation, for Revelation 20:4 describes how Christians will be beheaded for their faith during the Tribulation. If there really was a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then logically there would be no Christians in the Tribulation, but because there will be Christians in the Tribulation, that means there will be no Pre-Tribulation Rapture! Revelation 13:7 also declares that Christians will be given into the hand of the Antichrist, which means the Antichrist may overcome Christians and kill them.

Jesus will return only once and that is after the tribulation. Then he will gather all Christians.

So are you disagreeing with Paul in I Thessalonians 4 where he says that the saints will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air?

I Thessalonians 4

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Is this passage true or false? To say there is no rapture is to say that we will not be caught up together with the dead to meet the Lord in the air.

The term 'rapture' was used in at least one English Bible commentary before Darby came up with his theory in the 1800's.

Notice this is set at the coming of the Lord, not seven years before the coming of the Lord.

 

[presidente]

Couple of charts to highlight the difference between the Rapture and Jesus' Second Coming:

The Bible tells us a number of things that happen at the Lord's coming. Your theory here takes references to the Lord's coming, assumes it is two events... with no scripture to back it up... then assigns some verses to the made-up coming of Christ, and some verses to the coming of the Lord.

Your list here also attributes ideas to scriptures THAT ARE NOT THERE. Neither I Thessalonians 4:16-17 or I Corinthians 15:51-52 say anything about going to heaven. It is really easy to use scripture to prove your theory like this when you just make up what the Bible says, and maybe people won't actually look up the scriptures.

Also, there are factual errors here. Where is 'metamorphous' mentioned in regard to either the rapture or the second coming? Look up where μεταμορφόω is used in scripture--the transfiguration, and our on-going transformation. https://biblehub.com/greek/3339.htm

There are a lot of other dumb claims in these charts where when you look up the verse and it in no way backs up the assertion. The prooftexts don't back up the assertions. I could just as easily write, "Christians may not eat chocolate. John 3:16." But if you look up the verse, it doesn't prove the point.

Look up I Thessalonians 4, where the rapture is set at the parousia, the coming of Christ, the same word pre-tribbers find in passages they attribute to the 'second coming.' The rapture occurs at the parousia of Christ (I Thessalonians 4). The lawless one is destroyed at the the parousia of Christ.

In II Thessalonians 1, Jesus returns to give the 'CHURCH' rest __from those causing it TRIBULATION_ when He comes to execute vengeance on them that believe not and to be glorified in them that believe. How is that passage at all reconcilable with pretrib, which has more than one return of Christ instead of just one? In this passage, the trip when Jesus is giving the church rest from tribulation and being glorified in the saints is the same trip when He executes vengeance on them that believe not the Gospel.



If the parousia happens seven years before the parousia, how does that make sense? Why would pre-tribbers call their second coming the second coming instead of he third coming? What is the justification for assuming an additional return of Christ? Pre-tribbers assume an additional return of Christ and assign some of the things that will occur at His coming to one event in their system and other things to another event. Your post here also makes stuff up.

Also, in Matthew 24, the 'no man knoweth the day and the hour' verse and 'one shall be taken and the other left' are set at the ___post-tribulational___ coming of the Son of Man. This is clearly 'after the tribulation', not before the tribulation.

Pre-trib doesn't really make sense if we actually read the passages. Pre-trib proofs generally consist of taking a non-pretrib passage and making assertions to try to align the passage with pre-trib as they go along. If the audience assumes pretrib already, they may go for it. I usually see this done with II Thessalonians 2.

But it isn't reasonable to assume two returns of the Lord Jesus unless one has some Biblical evidence for the assumption in the first place.