What Does It Mean That God Desires All People To Be Saved?

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Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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Sticking with what Calvin said, and not some misrepresentation:

In The Institutes, Calvin defines this doctrine in the following manner:

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with
himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created
on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation;
and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that
he has been predestinated to life or to death.
Why some want to deny this is what Calvin taught is concerning, to say the least.
And then I am falsely accused of misrepresenting what Unconditional Election means.
And essentially told I don't know what I am talking about just because I do not believe it myself.
I do not believe what Calvin taught because it is not Biblical.
And even Calvinists on this very site and board do not believe what Calvin taught.
Why, then, do they call themselves Calvinists??? .:oops::unsure::oops:
 

Magenta

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@NightTwister if you do not believe God preordained some to eternal life, and
others to eternal damnation, as Calvin taught, why do you call yourself a Calvinist?
 

TabinRivCA

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Oct 23, 2018
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@NightTwister if you do not believe God preordained some to eternal life, and
others to eternal damnation, as Calvin taught, why do you call yourself a Calvinist?
Ok can you help me here to understand this issue. What is the difference in believing God knows everything about anything and the belief of the Calvinists that God has pre-destined people to their eternal abode? I've been wanting to ask this of someone for quite a while, am I missing something? BTW, I'm non-denominational.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,130
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Ok can you help me here to understand this issue. What is the difference in believing God knows everything about anything and the belief of the Calvinists that God has pre-destined people to their eternal abode? I've been wanting to ask this of someone for quite a while, am I missing something? BTW, I'm non-denominational.
Good morning Tabs .:). I hope you are well. Jumping right in, have a look at this very recent post:

post: 5137337 said:
Your opinion means nothing, its what Gods word of truth says. The elect, the believer,
even before they believe, and while ungodly, are preserved forever unto eternal glory.
One of the problems as with the above, is that nothing is required in order to be saved: neither repentance nor belief nor faith. Simply God's sovereign will, and by that same will, according to Calvin and some Calvinists, God chooses before anyone is born, who will be damned forever, not based on His omniscience (knowing ahead of time that they will believe), since it is an unconditional choice, and belief is a condition. I do not know how many believe this and I will not make up some statistic. I don't know how much you have engaged with Calvinists here (or elsewhere). But there are even those who do not assign "Calvinist" to themselves, who believe this. They will say such things as, if you have to accept the gift of God's grace, you have nullified His grace and it is no longer a gift. They say: We do not have to believe; we do not have to have faith. We need do nothing, because in that type of person's view, doing anything at all is a work.

The person who made the above post (I do not wish to name names) is not the only one I have spoken with here who believes that. They, and those like them, do not accept that "all" means all or that "the whole world" means the whole world in verses that proclaim Jesus to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. Not even John 3:16 applies to the whole world according to these people. They say things like, all only means the elect, and the whole world only refers to the elect. The other side of this is that in that system of belief, God has chosen who will be eternally damned, which means they will be punished for failing to make a choice that was never meant for them in the first place.

I realize there is a wide array of belief encompassed in individual beliefs. I have met a number of people here who say they had no choice but to believe. One person posts a lot about synergism, and he says man plays absolutely no role whatsoever in his salvation. I understand what it means to say salvation is 100%% of God. To hear him speak, though, man is but a puppet, and I do not believe that.

On the other hand, I do not believe man's will is free, since we are slaves to sin before being regenerated and/or born again of the Holy Spirit of God... and I have posted this view here a great many times in the eight years I have been here. But when I speak to him, he refuses to accept that is my view, and has repeatedly insisted I believe in free will simply because I disagree with him and the U of T.U.L.I.P., even after I showed him a number of my posts that prove I do not believe man's will is free. He will say since I speak on/explain Arminianism, that proves I am an Arminian, but I also speak on/explain Calvinism, for instance, explaining the "T" of T.U.L.I.P., to those who do not understand what it means. And he has made posts explaining Arminianism himself! I am neither Arminian nor Calvinist.

Saying man's will is not free does not mean we do not make choices. But you specifically asked about predestination.

If you read a number of the previous posts, you can see that people call themselves a Calvinist, even though they disagree with what Calvin had to say on the matter. Anyways, I hope I was able to answer your question, at least in part if only that. The answer is complex, but when speaking of Calvin, we have the historical record and I provided his belief on the matter more than once. I find that @Nehemiah6 is very well informed on this matter and probably has much material handy to counter the predestination idea, and @Cameron143 might be another good person to ask about this.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Ok can you help me here to understand this issue. What is the difference in believing God knows everything about anything and the belief of the Calvinists that God has pre-destined people to their eternal abode? I've been wanting to ask this of someone for quite a while, am I missing something? BTW, I'm non-denominational.
Exactly. What IS the difference?

I am not a Calvinist, although on this I agree. There is NO difference.

So I know it's hard, and even dangerous to try and discern God's motives for some things. Because His ways are not our ways. His thoughts are not our thoughts. But maybe His motive in this regard is THIS:

MY THOUGHTS IN GREEN
Ephesians 2

New King James Version

By Grace Through Faith
2 And you He made alive, who were dead (NOT SICK, NOT ALMOST DEAD, BUT DEAD SPIRITUALLY) in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that (THE FAITH HE GIFTED US) not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.


Also, God knitted us in our mother's womb. Giving us everything from the hairs on our heads, to the measure of faith we would need to believe, and trust in His Son.
 

SpeakTruth101

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Aug 14, 2023
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Isaiah 46:10, “Declaring the end from the beginning, and from of old that which has not yet been done, saying, ‘My counsel does stand, and all My delight I do.”

He knows the end from the beginning, and what everyone will choose an do, but we still have free will, He just knows what we will choose..

John 7:17, “If anyone chooses to do His desire, he shall know concerning the teaching, whether it is from YHWH, or whether I speak from Myself.”

Genesis 4:7, “If you do right, will it not be accepted? If you don’t do right, sin crouches at the door. Its desire is for you, but you are to rule over it.”

Psalm 11:4, "יהוה is in His holy temple; יהוה throne is in heaven; His eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men."

James 1:12-18, “Blessed is the man who does endure trial, for when he has been proved, he shall receive the crown of life which the Master has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is enticed, “I am enticed by Yah,” for Yah is not enticed by evil matters, and He entices no one. But each one is enticed when he is drawn away by his own desires and trapped. hen, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin. And sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death. Do not go astray, my beloved brothers. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of light, with whom there is no change, nor shadow of turning. Having purposed it, He brought us forth by the Word of truth, for us to be a kind of first-fruits of His creatures.”

Joshua 24:15, “And if it seems evil in your eyes to serve יהוה, choose for yourselves this day whom you are going to serve, whether the mighty ones which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the mighty ones of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But I and my house, we serve יהוה.”
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Exactly. What IS the difference?

I am not a Calvinist, although on this I agree. There is NO difference.

So I know it's hard, and even dangerous to try and discern God's motives for some things. Because His ways are not our ways. His thoughts are not our thoughts. But maybe His motive in this regard is THIS:

MY THOUGHTS IN GREEN
Ephesians 2

New King James Version

By Grace Through Faith
2 And you He made alive, who were dead (NOT SICK, NOT ALMOST DEAD, BUT DEAD SPIRITUALLY) in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that (THE FAITH HE GIFTED US) not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.


Also, God knitted us in our mother's womb. Giving us everything from the hairs on our heads, to the measure of faith we would need to believe, and trust in His Son.

Jesus' Words in John 6:65
:)
 

TabinRivCA

Well-known member
Oct 23, 2018
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Good morning Tabs .:). I hope you are well. Jumping right in, have a look at this very recent post:



One of the problems as with the above, is that nothing is required in order to be saved: neither repentance nor belief nor faith. Simply God's sovereign will, and by that same will, according to Calvin and some Calvinists, God chooses before anyone is born, who will be damned forever, not based on His omniscience (knowing ahead of time that they will believe), since it is an unconditional choice, and belief is a condition. I do not know how many believe this and I will not make up some statistic. I don't know how much you have engaged with Calvinists here (or elsewhere). But there are even those who do not assign "Calvinist" to themselves, who believe this. They will say such things as, if you have to accept the gift of God's grace, you have nullified His grace and it is no longer a gift. They say: We do not have to believe; we do not have to have faith. We need do nothing, because in that type of person's view, doing anything at all is a work.

The person who made the above post (I do not wish to name names) is not the only one I have spoken with here who believes that. They, and those like them, do not accept that "all" means all or that "the whole world" means the whole world in verses that proclaim Jesus to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. Not even John 3:16 applies to the whole world according to these people. They say things like, all only means the elect, and the whole world only refers to the elect. The other side of this is that in that system of belief, God has chosen who will be eternally damned, which means they will be punished for failing to make a choice that was never meant for them in the first place.

I realize there is a wide array of belief encompassed in individual beliefs. I have met a number of people here who say they had no choice but to believe. One person posts a lot about synergism, and he says man plays absolutely no role whatsoever in his salvation. I understand what it means to say salvation is 100%% of God. To hear him speak, though, man is but a puppet, and I do not believe that.

On the other hand, I do not believe man's will is free, since we are slaves to sin before being regenerated and/or born again of the Holy Spirit of God... and I have posted this view here a great many times in the eight years I have been here. But when I speak to him, he refuses to accept that is my view, and has repeatedly insisted I believe in free will simply because I disagree with him and the U of T.U.L.I.P., even after I showed him a number of my posts that prove I do not believe man's will is free. He will say since I speak on/explain Arminianism, that proves I am an Arminian, but I also speak on/explain Calvinism, for instance, explaining the "T" of T.U.L.I.P., to those who do not understand what it means. And he has made posts explaining Arminianism himself! I am neither Arminian nor Calvinist.

Saying man's will is not free does not mean we do not make choices. But you specifically asked about predestination.

If you read a number of the previous posts, you can see that people call themselves a Calvinist, even though they disagree with what Calvin had to say on the matter. Anyways, I hope I was able to answer your question, at least in part if only that. The answer is complex, but when speaking of Calvin, we have the historical record and I provided his belief on the matter more than once. I find that @Nehemiah6 is very well informed on this matter and probably has much material handy to counter the predestination idea, and @Cameron143 might be another good person to ask about this.
Tbh I've not been involved in the topic of Calvinism, and have briefly looked over the defenses of Calvinism. Again, tbh, and thx for the dialogue btw, I understand some of the issues but do not understand the need of making this such a big issue. I see within our members here, there is much contention in almost every thread, esp the BDF, and that is so non-productive. (not you here) But we are told to esteem our bro/sis's more highly, dying to self and becoming more kind et al, like Jesus. Maybe a handful here lives that out. That is confounding to me.
You've done your duties in giving me insight to the 'conflict' but I still don't see the absolute matter of contention. If I have time (a lot of, lol) I might check it out some more, until the headaches start. Thx again Ms M, you always follow through💕
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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Tbh I've not been involved in the topic of Calvinism, and have briefly looked over the defenses of Calvinism. Again, tbh, and thx for the dialogue btw, I understand some of the issues but do not understand the need of making this such a big issue. I see within our members here, there is much contention in almost every thread, esp the BDF, and that is so non-productive. (not you here) But we are told to esteem our bro/sis's more highly, dying to self and becoming more kind et al, like Jesus. Maybe a handful here lives that out. That is confounding to me.
You've done your duties in giving me insight to the 'conflict' but I still don't see the absolute matter of contention. If I have time (a lot of, lol) I might check it out some more, until the headaches start. Thx again Ms M, you always follow through💕
You are welcome, Tabs! I did contemplate the matter a bit before replying, because it is as I said a complex issue, especially when dealing with the vast array of nuances in people's beliefs. Man's will is not free, and yet we make choices all the time. Of course when it comes to God, and faith in the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus to pay the sin debt, that is the most important choice, for the wages of sin is death. God wants us to choose wisely. He wants us to choose life, and that life is in His Son. He draws us with loving kindness, and desires all to repent and believe, that they not perish in the second death. In fact, He commands repentance, and He enables us to believe, but does that mean He makes that choice for us? Jesus said when He was lifted up He would draw all men to Himself. Does that mean all will respond in the positive? And let us not forget the whosoever will-s. And factor in what is said of the natural man.... Good luck with your studies! .:D


Ezekiel 18:4 plus 32
:)
 

NightTwister

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Jul 5, 2023
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Ok can you help me here to understand this issue. What is the difference in believing God knows everything about anything and the belief of the Calvinists that God has pre-destined people to their eternal abode? I've been wanting to ask this of someone for quite a while, am I missing something? BTW, I'm non-denominational.
Well, there's a lot to that. I would suggest reading "Chosen by God" by R C Sproul.
 

TabinRivCA

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Oct 23, 2018
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Well, there's a lot to that. I would suggest reading "Chosen by God" by R C Sproul.
I'll check it out hoping there's a satisfactory meeting of the minds of God's children here, thx! We're still all saved here, I believe🙏🙌🙌🙌 (hopefully no arguments on that).
 

seekingthemindofChrist

Casting down imaginations
Jul 10, 2023
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Ok can you help me here to understand this issue. What is the difference in believing God knows everything about anything and the belief of the Calvinists that God has pre-destined people to their eternal abode? I've been wanting to ask this of someone for quite a while, am I missing something? BTW, I'm non-denominational.
Biblical predestination, as opposed to the ravings of the madman Calvin, has absolutely nothing to do with anybody being predestined to their eternal abode. Instead, this is what it has to do with:

Ephesians 1:5

"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Christians, or those to whom Paul was actually writing, have been predestinated unto the adoption, and, elsewhere, Paul told us exactly what this adoption is.

Romans 8:18-23

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

Paul said that all of creation is waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God, and this manifestation will take place at our adoption or when we shall receive glorified bodies at Christ's return. Not only is all of creation waiting for this manifestation or adoption, but we, those who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, or those who have what Paul earlier called "the Spirit of adoption" (Romans 8:15), are groaning within ourselves as we await the same.

This is what Christians have been predestinated to.

John Calvin was a lunatic.
 

seekingthemindofChrist

Casting down imaginations
Jul 10, 2023
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What does it mean that God desires all people to be saved?

It means exactly what it says.

God's desire is that all people would be saved, but man, because of his God-given free will or ability to choose, can reject God's offer of salvation.

It is that simple.
 

TabinRivCA

Well-known member
Oct 23, 2018
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Biblical predestination, as opposed to the ravings of the madman Calvin, has absolutely nothing to do with anybody being predestined to their eternal abode. Instead, this is what it has to do with:

Ephesians 1:5

"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Christians, or those to whom Paul was actually writing, have been predestinated unto the adoption, and, elsewhere, Paul told us exactly what this adoption is.

Romans 8:18-23

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

Paul said that all of creation is waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God, and this manifestation will take place at our adoption or when we shall receive glorified bodies at Christ's return. Not only is all of creation waiting for this manifestation or adoption, but we, those who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, or those who have what Paul earlier called "the Spirit of adoption" (Romans 8:15), are groaning within ourselves as we await the same.

This is what Christians have been predestinated to.

John Calvin was a lunatic.
What makes you say Calvin was a lunatic?
 

PennEd

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Apr 22, 2013
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He had people murdered who did not believe as he did.
I guess since he's noy here to defend himself, someone should give the other side:

5 Myths about John Calvin
December 01, 2019by: Michael A. G. Haykin


This article is part of the 5 Myths series.

Dispelling Urban Legends
Like many larger-than-life figures in the history of the church, the memory of the French Reformer John Calvin has been subjected to various distortions that amount to urban legends.

Myth #1: Calvin had Michael Servetus executed.
During what has been called the Servetus Affair in Geneva in 1553, Calvin was embroiled in the trial and execution by burning of Anabaptist Michael Servetus (c.1511–1553), who was adamant in his denial of the Trinity. Calvin had warned Servetus not come to Geneva since he told him that he would surely be arrested by the city authorities. But the Anabaptists believed that God was telling him to go to Geneva and engage in some kind of end-times show-down with Calvin. Despite Calvin’s warning, then, Servetus, who had narrowly escaped being burned by the Inquisition in Spain, turned up in Geneva and was spotted at a worship service in the Cathedral of St. Peter, and subsequently arrested.


John Calvin
Derek W. H. Thomas, John W. Tweeddale
Leading Reformed pastors and scholars reflect on the importance of John Calvin’s life and teaching for the church today.
Calvin was not at that time a citizen so he had no political power to put Servetus on trial, let alone convict him. Servetus was indeed put on trial for heresy, and Calvin was called as a witness for the prosecution. Calvin pled with the authorities not to burn Servetus, but they, wanting actually to demonstrate their independence of Calvin, opted for burning the Anabaptist.

Now, I do not wish to whitewash Calvin in this regard. In his own day, the Reformer Sebastien Castellio (1515–1563) rightly remonstrated with Calvin for executing Servetus. The state has no biblical mandate, under the new covenant, to execute heretics. Nonetheless, what Calvin actually did and did not do needs to be set forth as well as understanding those actions in the context of his times.

Myth #2: The tyrant Calvin ran a gulag-like operation in Geneva during the main period of his ministry in that city from 1541 to 1564.
Calvin’s involvement in this gruesome incident of Servetus’ burning has given rise to his posthumous reputation as a bloody tyrant who ran Geneva like some sort of gulag.

Calvin could certainly be vicious in his verbal attacks on those whom he regarded as heretics and his theological opponents, but there is no evidence that he regularly sought to kill them. Thus, theologians who crossed swords with Calvin in Geneva—men like Jérôme-Hermès Bolsec (d. 1584) and Sebastian Castellio (1515–1563)—were exiled from the city. Moreover, it is vital to note that most sixteenth-century Christian figures, both Protestant and Roman Catholic, regarded heresy not simply as a wrong-headed intellectual pathway, but as imbued with “the stigma of moral corruption,” and as such it had to be cut out of the body politic lest it pollute the entire community.1 If the Genevan authorities had let Servetus live once he had been recognized and arrested in the city, it would have given the enemies of the Reformation, notably the Roman Catholic Church, proof that the Reformers were also heretics for tolerating such heresy.

Moreover, Calvin’s political standing in Geneva was still tenuous in the early 1550s. Many of the city’s patricians looked askance at the French Reformer and would have been all too happy to boot him out as they had once done in 1538.2 In fact, one of Calvin’s co-Reformers, Wolfgang Musculus (1497–1563) was convinced that Servetus had come to Geneva on purpose to exploit the differences between Calvin and the city council. Although Calvin’s “visceral hatred of Servetus was all too clear” during the 1550s,3 he simply did not have the power to execute the heretic. The charge by the nineteenth-century author J.B. Galiffé that Calvin was a “tyrant priest who submitted Geneva to the most infamous servitude” is patently wrong, failing as it does to understand the severe limitations on Calvin’s political power.

There were indeed others who were put to death during Calvin’s ministry in Geneva. During an outbreak of the plague in Geneva during 1544–1545, some thirty-eight men and women were accused of aiding its spread and subsequently executed for what we would call bioterrorism today. Calvin appears to have believed this charge about these sixteenth-century bioterrorists, who were accused of smearing plague-contaminated ointment on the key-holes of Genevan houses!4

One other execution was that of Jacques Gruet in 1547, a materialist who may also have been an atheist. He was executed not for his beliefs, though, but for threatening the life of Calvin and seeking to instigate a coup in the city. Not surprisingly the numbers of those executed in Geneva during Calvin’s time were exaggerated by his enemies, exaggerations that were bandied about especially in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries when Calvinism (a word that Calvin loathed) was often a house under attack.

Myth #3: Calvin’s theology can be summed up by the acronym TULIP (total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints).
Fans of Calvin’s thought have also unwisely supported myths about their hero. For example, they have attributed the use of the acronym TULIP as a means of summing up biblical soteriology to their great hero. Actually, its usage is fairly recent and dates from the turn of the twentieth century.5 The foundation of Calvin’s theology rests securely on two pillars: the utter sovereignty of God over every sphere of creation and the glory of God as the end of all of his activity and works in space and time. There is legitimate debate about whether or not Calvin was committed to particular redemption or not—I think he basically was—but this issue was not at the forefront of Calvin’s theological concerns, hence to use TULIP, to sum up his theology is totally anachronistic. It was Abraham Kuyper (1837–1920), the Dutch Calvinist, who rightly said and in this he was true to Calvin’s thought: “No single piece of our mental world is to be hermetically sealed off from the rest, and there is not a square inch in the whole domain of our human existence over which Christ, who is Sovereign over all, does not cry: ‘Mine!’” 6

Calvin is unaccommodating regarding the uselessness of human works to save us since he is passionate that “the Lord’s glory should stand undiminished.”7 A salvation that is based on human works robs God of his glory of being the sole source of salvation. As Calvin rightly observed: “see how often and how earnestly Scripture urges us, wherever righteousness is concerned, to give thanks to God alone.”8 If the key question that Martin Luther (1483–1546) had asked was, “How can I find peace with God?”, the central question for John Calvin was: “How can I live a life to the glory of God?”

By the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit, the life of a Christian should be one that is holy and filled with works that are truly good.​

 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Myth #4: Calvin’s emphasis on monergistic soteriology has an antinomian bent.
In answering this question—“How can I live a life to the glory of God?”—Calvin was led to insist on the necessity of good works in the Christian life. Though none are saved by works, Calvin is nevertheless insistent that none are saved without them. As the French Reformer put it on one occasion:

The faithful are never reconciled to God without the gift of sanctification, yea, to this end are we justified, that afterward, we might worship God in holiness of life. For Christ does not otherwise wash us with his blood and by his satisfaction reconcile God to us, unless he makes partakers of his Spirit, which renews us into a holy life.9​
By the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit, the life of a Christian should be one that is holy and filled with works that are truly good. In fact, Scripture, Calvin noted, sets forth Christ as the pattern to which his followers must conform their lives.10 As Tony Lane notes, Calvin here provides his own version of the late medieval theme of the imitation of Christ, a focus that had produced such books as Thomas à Kempis’s The Imitation of Christ.11 It is also noteworthy that Calvin does not turn the believer to the Decalogue for the ultimate pattern of holiness. Rather, he simply points the Christian disciple to Christ. Ever the realist, Calvin is well aware of the fact that such a life of discipleship can never issue in perfection in this world. But with “sincere simplicity” the believer must seek to make steady, daily progress towards the goal of perfect holiness, a goal that will only be realized in the world to come.12

And what does the life of Christian discipleship, a life of good works, look like? Well, first of all, it is marked by self-denial, the recognition that the Christian does not belong to himself or herself, but belongs totally to God and is to live for God’s glory. In Calvin’s words:

Even though the law of the Lord provides the finest and best-disposed method of ordering a man’s life, it seemed good to the Heavenly Teacher to shape his people by an even more explicit plan to that rule which he had set forth in the law. Here, then, is the beginning of this plan: the duty of believers is “to present their bodies to God as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to him” [Romans 12:1] …we are consecrated and dedicated to God in order that we may hereafter think, speak, meditate, and do, nothing except to his glory. 13​
Myth 5: Calvin was not interested in missions.
It has often been maintained that Calvin, like the sixteenth-century Reformers in general, had a poorly developed missiology, that missions were an area to which they gave little thought. Yes, this argument runs, they rediscovered the apostolic gospel, but they had no vision to spread it to the uttermost parts of the earth. In some quarters, it is considered axiomatic that the Reformers had no concern for overseas missions to non-Christians and that they evidence no recognition of the entire missionary dimension of the church.

Now, it is vital to recognize that, as Scott Hendrix has shown, the Reformation was the attempt to “make European culture more Christian than it had been. It was, if you will, an attempt to reroot faith, to rechristianize Europe.”14 In the eyes of the Reformers, this program involved two accompanying convictions. First, they considered what passed for Christianity in late mediaeval Europe as sub-Christian at best, pagan at worst. As John Calvin put it in his Reply to Sadoleto (1539):

. . . the light of divine truth had been extinguished, the Word of God buried, the virtue of Christ left in profound oblivion, and the pastoral office subverted. Meanwhile, impiety so stalked abroad that almost no doctrine of religion was pure from admixture, no ceremony free from error, no part, however minute, of divine worship untarnished by superstition.15​
The Reformers did indeed view their task as a missionary one: they were planting true Christian churches.16

There are innumerable examples of Calvin’s mission-mindedness in his writings. For instance, in his comments on Isaiah 12:5, Calvin deals with a common misinterpretation of God’s divine sovereignty.

[Isaiah] shows that it is our duty to proclaim the goodness of God to every nation. While we exhort and encourage others, we must not at the same time sit down in indolence, but it is proper that we set an example before others; for nothing can be more absurd than to see lazy and slothful men who are exciting other men to praise God.17​
Calvin was rightly convinced that one major way in which God uses his people for the conversion of others is through prayer—their prayers for the conversion of unbelievers.18 In Calvin’s words, God “bids us to pray for the salvation of unbelievers”19 and Scripture passages like 1 Timothy 2:4 encourage us not to “cease to pray for all people in general.”20 We see this conviction at work in Calvin’s own prayers, a good number of which have been recorded for us at the end of his sermons. Each of his sermons on Deuteronomy, for instance, ends with a prayer that runs something like this: “may it please him [i.e. God] to grant this [saving] grace, not only to us but also to all peoples and nations of the earth.”21 In fact, in the liturgy that Calvin drew up for his church in Geneva, there is this prayer:

We pray you now, O most gracious God and merciful Father, for all people everywhere. As it is your will to be acknowledged as the Saviour of the whole world, through the redemption wrought by Your Son Jesus Christ, grant that those who are still estranged from the knowledge of him, being in the darkness and captivity of error and ignorance, may be brought by the illumination of your Holy Spirit and the preaching of your gospel to the right way of salvation, which is to know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.22​
It also needs noting that Calvin and the Genevan pastors helped further the work of Reformation evangelism in Europe through print media. In fact, by Calvin’s death, his interest in Christian publishing meant that there were no less than thirty-four printing houses in Geneva that printed Bibles and Christian literature in a variety of European languages. In the 1550s Geneva was particularly a hive of biblical editions and translations. There was, for example: Robert Estienne’s Greek New Testament of 1551, which divided the text into verses for the first time; a new edition of the Vulgate; an Italian translation and Spanish translation in 1555 and 1556, respectively; and at least twenty-two editions of the French Bible. And in 1560 a complete English translation of the Bible was printed sometime between April 10 and May 30 of that year. This was the Geneva Bible, the bedrock of early English Puritanism.

Calvin was vitally concerned about the evangelization of his native land, France, and his countrymen, the French. It has been estimated that by 1562 some 2,150 congregations had been established in France with around two million members, many of them converted through the witness of men trained in Geneva.23 That two million comprised 50% of the upper and middle classes and a full 10% of the entire population. The growth is enormous when one reckons that at the time of Calvin’s conversion, in the early 1530s, there were probably no more than a couple of thousand Evangelicals in France.

But Calvin was concerned for not only France but also for the reformation of the church in places like Scotland, England, and Spain, as well as Poland, Hungary, and the Netherlands. He even encouraged a mission to Brazil in 1555, which turned out, though, to be a failure.24 It is noteworthy that when the church in Geneva heard of this Brazilian opportunity, contemporary chronicler (and participant in the mission to Brazil) Jean de Léry recorded that “Upon . . . hearing this news, the church of Geneva at once gave thanks to God for the extension of the reign of Jesus Christ in a country so distant and likewise so foreign and among a nation entirely without the knowledge of the true God.”25
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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David was a murderer too. Shall we rip out the Psalms he wrote? In any case, this is the classic "poisoning the well" fallacy.
Would you trust David with your wife? Not me. Calvin's issues came after the cross as a Roman Catholic priest.
 

NightTwister

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2023
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Would you trust David with your wife? Not me. Calvin's issues came after the cross as a Roman Catholic priest.
Would you trust David with your wife? Not me. Calvin's issues came after the cross as a Roman Catholic priest.
Non sequitur. Also, "after the cross as"?