Are gifts evidence of salvation?
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Niki7
Guest
Yes ….You cannot operate any the manifestations unless you have spirit within….
And actually, God does state that speaking in tongues is your evidence in the senses realm that you are born again
1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
I am not saying you are not born again, unless ….I am simply stating…. it is your evidence in the senses realm that you are.
No, eternal salvation is believing Jesus is God, that He died and rose again, and that by believing in Him , you have eternal life.
There will be fruit from this, because the saved person has the Holy Spirit indwelling their soul..but it can be something not that visible to outsiders.
The test of salvation is if someone has believed in Jesus..
Not looking at their works.
Also... Not every Christian in the NT got the gift of tongues. Some gifts were for some and not others.
The book of John is about knowing you have eternal life..and that isn't by looking at the believers tongue speaking.
John also provides a number of criteria to determine if you have eternal life. So there are objective "tests" but not spiritual gifts as one group (although every believer should have at least one gift).
True. But that is not what John is talking about.
1. RECOGNITION AND CONFESSION OF SINS (1 Jn 1;9,10)
2. OBEYING CHRIST'S COMMANDMENTS (1 Jn 2:3)
3. LOVING THE BRETHREN ( 1 Jn 2:10)
4. NOT LOVING THE "WORLD" (AND ITS WAYS) (1 Jn 2:15)
5. "DOING" RIGHTEOUSNESS (1 Jn 2:29)
6. PURIFYING ONESELF (1 Jn 3:3)
7. REFUSING TO BELIEVE EVERY SPIRIT (1 Jn 4:1)
8. TESTIFYING THAT THE FATHER SENT THE SON TO BE THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD (1 Jn 4:14)
9. LOVING GOD AND KEEPING HIS COMMANDMENTS (1 Jn 5:2)
10. OVERCOMING THE WORLD (1 Jn 5:4)
11. HAVING THE INNER WITNESS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT (1 Jn 5:10)
12. HAVING ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE OF ETERNAL LIFE (1 Jn 5:13)
13. HAVING CONFIDENCE IN PRAYERS BEING ANSWERED (1 Jn 5:14,15)
14. NO HABITUAL SINNING OR PRACTICING SINNING (1 Jn 5:18)
15. TOTAL REPENTANCE FROM IDOLS (1 Jn 5:21)
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FollowingtheWay
Guest
Pretty sure you can be confident of salvation when you begin to see the fruit of the spirit evident in your life. Be wary of the whole gifts being evidence thing
““Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”
Matthew 7:21-23 NIV
Gifts are great and we are encouraged to persue the gifts but love is greater according to Paul-
“If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.”
1 Corinthians 13:1-3 NIV
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.”
Galatians 5:22-25 NIV
“By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.”
Matthew 7:16-20 NIV
“They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.”
1 John 2:19-20 NIV
““Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”
Matthew 7:21-23 NIV
Gifts are great and we are encouraged to persue the gifts but love is greater according to Paul-
“If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.”
1 Corinthians 13:1-3 NIV
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.”
Galatians 5:22-25 NIV
“By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.”
Matthew 7:16-20 NIV
“They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.”
1 John 2:19-20 NIV
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FollowingtheWay
Guest
It’s not just pretty words coming out of the mouth in prayer but what is in your heart in your inmost being. Belief is more than mental assent or head knowledge but a heart movement deep within you. So when you know, you will know.
“If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.””
Romans 10:9-11 NIV
“If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.””
Romans 10:9-11 NIV
You are missing the point of the question.
How about I word the question as follows;
Does possession of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit prove sincere belief in "Jesus is God, that He dies and rose again"?
"Also... Not every Christian in the NT got the gift of tongues. Some gifts were for some and not others."
You are again missing the point. No one is claiming that you must have the gifts to be saved. The question is does having the gift prove you are among the saved.
Agreed....but what about the question?
How about if I word the question as follows;
Does possession of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit prove that you sincerely declared with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him the the dead?
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FollowingtheWay
Guest
there are supernatural manifestations that can look like Holy Spirit but aren’t. Demonic forces are still at work today and we know that Satan can masquerade as an angel of the light. So I think someone can be deceived into thinking they might be saved because they worked a supernatural miracle but it may not be a Holy Spirit miracle. In which case the deceived person would not be saved. But Holy Spirit will not impart power to an unsaved person. Only the saved truly have Holy Spirits power. The unsaved are probably being used as pawns of Satan. When God is on the move in our world so is the evil one.
I'm not sure these qualify as evidence that can be observed by anyone but the believer themselves. But such as the fruit of the spirit of joy peace longsuffering can readily be noticed by others and are thus practical in use to build upon, as exampled when the centurion 'saw' the character of Jesus and, believing, said, "surely, this is the Son of God."
1Corinthians 12 introduces spiritual gift with an introduction saying, "no one speaking by the Spirit of God says 'Jesus be cursed' and no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit" and the body addresses 1) spiritual gifts, 2) the body of Christ, and concludes by leading into 3) the greater gifts saying, "But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way." followed by the ch13 explanation of love as the greatest those that remain of faith, hope, and love. Then, ch14 continues the thought of eagerly desiring the greater gifts saying, " Earnestly pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy." This seems to place prophecy at least in close running if not on par with love in its ability to edify the church. Indeed, the remainder of ch14 elaborates on value of prophesy above that of speaking in tongues.
They are included with love among the manifestations of the Spirit.
Okay....but what about the question? We are not talking about "Demonic forces" or "Satan".
How about this?
Does FollowingtheWay possession of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit prove that he is among the saved?
I am assuming that your confession of Jesus as Lord and that He was raised from the dead is sincere.
Um, what?
The fruit of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
What, exactly, do you mean, when you claim these are not supernatural fruit?
Could you explain these "objective tests" that John uses???
objective
adjective
- Existing independent of or external to the mind; actual or real.
- Based on observable phenomena; empirical.
- Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices: synonym: fair.
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FollowingtheWay
Guest
if it’s legitimately a supernatural manifestation of Holy spirits power through a person then yes one would have to be saved by default.
Here is the text:
Galatians 5:22-23
King James Version
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
No mention of these being limited to the supernatural. Can they being given in a supernatural method? Yes.
I have seen these fruits in many non-Christians and it was by their own force of will, not given by the Holy Spirit.